"After reviewing complaints from a few members, as well as discussing the matter with Grand Master Firefox, we have decided to abolish and prohibit the use of point systems for awarding members."

...well, there goes the GJW. :P

I think this is probably a good idea on the whole. Point systems do tend to lead to abuse, misuse, arguments, and general mayhem.

and there goes the trust in the Clan and House summits....

Competitions that use point systems are fine, obviously. The point systems that are banned are the ones Houses and Clans use to determine the awards given for activity.

Why should members' trust in House and Clan summits now be diminished, Frey? Comments like that lend credence to Executive Officer Astatine's belief that the Proconsuls and Consuls are "dragging their asses," and are adverse to doing the work they are supposed to do. As far as I can see, you will now be required to more carefully monitor your Clan's activity in order to award members appropriately. Is that so terribly difficult?

If it is, resign and save yourself the dishonor of the Grand Master firing you.

Can we still be your slaves, Shadonyx? >:P

Long live Quaestor and Aedile merit award analysis!

The whole point of merit awards is to reward individuals for performance above and beyond the call of duty.

The point systems only devalue medals by handing them out to people who do innumerable mundane tasks in order to get medals. These people arn't necessarily improving thier house or clan, or doing anything that warrants any merit at all. They're simply being active.

I can train a monkey to be active. I guess I should award my chimp a Steel Cross.

"These systems can be easily abused for nice rewards."

Thats what i mean in trust in the House and Clan summits. And just to get this in the right point of view, if a member does outstanding performance (above all duty) he gets an extra award, but all those "normal" members who show a constant activity and fly a Battle per week (Sith) those know, sorry, knew, the point system too, and they knew that they get an award for their work.

Do what you want with your point system. This is for comments, not discussions.

Sorry Frey, the way I award people who are active, is by not awoling them :P

If someone wants medal, they have to earn it. Being active simply isn't enough.

"If someone wants medal, they have to earn it. Being active simply isn't enough."

Obviously :P

Yet just "being active" isn't enough to earn the SC under the current House Archanis system (or should I say, the past system?) The people who earned the SC's recently were averaging 50 missions a week...that's not just that "one battle a week" that some earlier comment mentioned. These missions were for House Comps, Squadron (BattleTeam) comps, or just something they wanted to do to keep active...they busted themselves to reach this...

Oh...and in a year and a half in the DB (all in the same Clan)...I never broke 1000 pts...if I got a medal, it was cause a AED/QUA decided that I'd flown a lot that week. And I considered/consider myself one of the most active

Oh wow, not the summits need to actually REMEMBER who did work. For those having problems with it, what about writing down who has done what in an Excel file? It's about the same thing as noting down points, just more accurate.

It's a shame. Points system were going well in Archanis. This last decision helps those CMDRs, AED and QUA who are too lazy for screening their Houses activity. My congratulations to everyone.

God forbid you should have to monitor your House's activity and award ACCORDINGLY. Now people won't be able to get DJK in 2 months, or a Grand Cross once a week, for sitting on their tail like a bum and flying a thousand missions. I think a lot of times everyone is held to the standard of 'super member' and it causes a lot of people to quit participating or go AWOL because they actually have real lives which includes work and classes and they don't have the time to commit that 1 or 2 other people do. You, the House Summit, of course have to know your members and what their limitations are. They should be awarded for their efforts by more than just 'not being AWOLed.' If a fella who has 60 free hours a week flies 60 free missions and one who has 3 free hours a week flies 3 missions, what is the difference? None, they're both putting 100% of their time and effort into it. I have one guy who goes to class in the morning and works in the evening so he's literally busy for about 16 hours a day, and only has weekends to do anything, which of course he has to share with other real life spare time commitments. Yet, I consider him my most active member because in what free time he does have, he works for the House. So, what's my point? Point systems have done nothing but devalue rank and awards, and to an extent (as far as I can tell anyway) alienate some members into feeling inadequate at best. (Please don't get all worked up and try to pick a fight with me like I'm sure some of you will, this again is just my opinion.)

Arania - your point about the excel file is right. However, the thing that a point system adds is a public knowledge of where they stand. I don't necessarily think that, from a fairness stand, any way is better than the other (this assumes the QUA is active as can be which they normally aren't), but having the ability to systematically calculate where you stand eliminates lots of problems for the not-quite-so-average members. It gives them a specific goal to work towards, and keeps them active.

other comments...

What I would like to see, instead of an outright banning of these systems, is a more regulated DB-wide system. It does not necessarily need to be based on points, but rather a more elongated set of guidlines as to specific activities that may be done to earn things.

Goals and regulations need to be set. When a person joins we tell them to get active by doing X Y and Z, but currently we don't tell them at all when they will see any reward for their hard work. They come into the DB blind and that causes a LOT of potential members to go AWOL.

If the Quaestors and Consuls are not allowed to set their own guidelines for new members to see, then the Dark Council needs to give out a set of guidelines.

And this has nothing to do with the activity level of the Summits in general. This involves them. I can't count the amount of times I've seen Summit members complain that they have worked hard and have not been rewarded. We dealt with it all the time in the Assembly of Consuls. The upper tier medals are almost impossible to get, and there have been a lot of deserving people over the years that have missed out. A set of guidlines would let a Consul say "Hey Dark Council. You've forgotten about me again, but I've done X, Y, and Z and according to this set standard I should be getting this award."

It comes down to the fact that people are interested in "What can you do for me today." A set of guidelines would answer that question and keep more people active.

And no one come back and say that the Medal Guide is out for this purpose. The medal guide is great and it was long overdue (I hope Belzy was awarded for his work). However it lacks the guideline of a Steel Cross can be given for specifically W, X, Y, and Z.

In the end it's the DC's decision, and that is fine. I just don't feel like there was relevant conversation with all parties involved (in my case the Tal houses that have had these systems since I was Consul) before the decision was made. If there was, please tell me and I'll shut up.

Yeah, well, my main problem is that it really looks as if the awards are bought, especially when people see their points (other than in a competition)

Point systemen, smoint system, it doesnt really matter WHAT system you use as long as its a) generally accepted by DB members, b) used throughout the DB, instead of each Clan having its own system. That means there can be variances in points per reward per Clan, as long as its resonable. I wont insult anyones mental capabilities by quoting examples. And finally c) isnt changed 180 degrees every time a new CHAN is appointed or someone is having his monthly period.

As far as the XO's claim that Consuls and Proconsuls are dragging their feet...You can cry bloody murder each time you dont fancy something or someone but it only takes a few times untill people stop taking you seriously and when there is a well founded reason to cry bloody murder....Well, I'll let you fill in the blanks yourselves. I can only speak for Arcona and I think our members are pretty satisfied with the current situation. And that is all that matters to me.

and my reasoned response to all of you is... yer stupid :P

Points Systems can be the greatest things in the world, they can also be the worst. The thing is, is any of these systems CAN and WILL work depending on the people who run them. Thus, the trust in the commanders as some people have been whining about.

The only problem is, is that because points systems can and often are abused, it screws up the whole deal for people who ARE doing their jobs right, and not letting their point systems be abused. So the moral of this story should be, don't bitch at the DC for taking them away, find the people who abused them, and tar and feather them...

The Ancient ;)

Honestly the point system looks like just another step into the direction to simplify the summit's work. A system like this is a nice scheme you can lay over your member's files and find out whether they deserve a medal or not. Listen to me, summits: IT DOES NOT WORK THIS WAY.
Once you become Aedile, Quaestor, Proconsul or Consul, you take up responsibility and a whole lot of work. Your job, and yours alone, is to monitor every of your people under your command closely; to evaluate them specifically under a lot of different circumstances for every single member; to keep track of their activity not only the current month but also the month before and the month before this.
If it comes down to marking spreadsheets every month's end, you're wrong in your current position.
This is my opinion, not necessarily the truth. But I'd like to toss in the interesting example of Quaestors that ordered their members to send out weekly reports of what they were doing so that they could evaulate them. And this is but the tip of the iceberg.

Here's a novel idea... all point systems to be submitted to the Chancellor for review and amendment rather than just banning them outright. That way Belze has more to do than just point-click and the Clans that want to can keep up with a point scheme that is approved and overseen by the Chancellor.

Problem solved, perchance?