So... new IRC server for a specific channel? I can see that throwing a lot of newbs off who can barely manage IRC to begin with. Can we still form matches on Undernet's #dbgaming if so inclined?

The Commando is dead. Long live the Commando?

Pazaak AND Hawken?! I might actually raise my GMRG rank now :P Thanks Fremoc :D

POE is now supported? Awesome.

it seems like switching one channel to a new IRC server is just going to make it harder to find games. I don't like that i now need to set up a new server etc just to try to participate in vendetta events for gaming :(

Would it be possible to set up a bot to link between #dbgaming on both servers, so that people looking for games could talk to each other through a bot, and set up games that way? :P

a cross-server bot would be baller. Jam3z?

Oh, also, POE is not like D3. POE is like D2's more awesome reincarnation that looks upon D3 with shame.

Hawken, eh? I keep meaning to try that game... this may just give me the excuse.

https://warframe.com/

Don't know if there is any word going around on this game, but it seems free, fun, and an actual replacement for RC.

Warframe has been played by multiple people for testing, that's all I know.

So... new IRC server for a specific channel? I can see that throwing a lot of newbs off who can barely manage IRC to begin with. Can we still form matches on Undernet's #dbgaming if so inclined? <-- Newbie can't connect to undernet anyway.

I for one think this is awesome. Undernet is overcrowded. It's frustrating. If anything, it's more of a negative thing to new members than a positive. I've had new members say they don't IRC because they can't connect.

I hope everyone comes to see how the advantages of switching to our private server is severely pro heavy versus the very small, minute cons. And I hope to see the entire DB eventually shift over.

Jam3z already made a link that a member can click on and directly connect to the server using a web-based IRC client. Yes, mibbit can do that as well, but have you tried using mibitt to connect to undernet? It always takes me 10-15 minutes, if I get lucky.

A drop in net splits, ping time outs, ect. Being able to freely use our nicknames without someone else stealing them. The ability to seemlessly connect to the greater DB-chat room without needing to download a program, or hack an mIRC registration.

That's how I see it.

And lets be honest about this; the reason people have problems finding games is because people were avoiding #dbgaming to begin with. That's a separate issue.

Signed up for Hawken, signed up for Path of Exile. Lets get some games going.

I wish I had a like button for Wally's post there.

Just a quick note about having to "hack an mIRC registration"... that's not needed you can freely use mIRC after the 30 day trial period is up, my current mIRC install is still usable at 1400 days beyond that time period.

As for people avoiding #dbgaming, I think that could be because as long as it's just participation based then people just go in there to get the matches they need for that and then don't bother, of course I could be wrong.

And if you're really serious about using mIRC, it's always nice to support the company who makes the program.

I'm going to reference a little bit concerning the new IRC Server, since this has apparently been what is up for debate.

A) I don't want everything that I do or say on IRC to my friends, many of which are personal nature being able to be read by the Dark Council. Until we get some sort of Data and Privacy guarantee on that server, one that is bound by actual laws, I"m not going to be using it. This is the internet we live in folks, and this is not a minor concern.

B) Setting up IRC in order to have a stable connection to the Undernet is simple, and it takes almost no technical know-how. It's as simple as enabling a port forward on your router to open up the standard identd port, and then enabling your Identd server in IRC. Not really a problem. Will we have outages and splits on various servers? Sure. But it's not even remotely difficult.

C) Welcoming a new generation to IRC. Again, I don't have an issue with this, but I don't think it's that hard to get people on IRC... if they actually want to come. I talked a member from Tal through the process in about 4 quickfire emails last week. I would postulate that people "giving up on trying to connect to undernet" just don't care that much, since a chimp could figure it out by using this magical tool we have called: The Google, and that doesn't even count their ability to ask fellow DB members for advice/help.

D) That cross-server link both that Mav and Muz mentioned would be fantastic, and would address everyone's problems. I hope you can figure something like that out Jamez... I might not even hate that bot quite as much.

E) Use ChatZilla firefox extension over MIbbit, Wally. If you're not using firefox, for shame ;)

I am personally all for the new IRC server. People aren't chucked off, and all communication will remain stable. I'm sure there will be a way to protect private messages and conversations. James has mentioned that the only possibility for the 'transparency' of private messaging is if something is coded in. At the moment, this new IRC server does not support anything more than the servers on Undernet. In other words, Jac and James (the two server admins) will be able to see that which the Undernet admins can see. By that logic, its not a lawful argument, given that such access is already available on our current server. That, and I'm sure James would be willing to write up a legal writ guaranteeing complete confidentiality of all communication.

I think this could be a real boon to our own development. It could facilitate the continued personalisation of the Brotherhood's identity. This is a chance to claim ownership of our own server. It means we will have the freedom to do what we want. No more net-splits, no more problems with members unable to connect.

I wholly endorse a move to a solely DJB IRC server.

I'm aware that undernet can currently see everything I write on it. The difference is, undernet doesn't know who I personally am. They know almost nothing about me. That is not the case for the administrators of the DB.

I think you're misinterpreting, Yacks.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's not a case of legality. And if it was, like I said, I'm sure James would sign/write a legal writ detailing the confidentiality of the messages exchanged on the IRC server.

I'm talking with James currently, and he states: "I'd be happy to give people access to the configuration files and source code, they can check for themselves." This demonstrates to me that there isn't any insidious undercurrent. This is simply an attempt to streamline our communication and make our experience on IRC that much better.

I think we need to start having faith, rather than automatically shouldering doubts. We need to start thinking outside the box and accepting fresh new ideas. If it fails, we can always fall back on Undernet, but there's no harm in trying.

I think you're misinterpreting, Yacks.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's not a case of legality. And if it was, like I said, I'm sure James would sign/write a legal writ detailing the confidentiality of the messages exchanged on the IRC server.

I'm talking with James currently, and he states: "I'd be happy to give people access to the configuration files and source code, they can check for themselves." This demonstrates to me that there isn't any insidious undercurrent. This is simply an attempt to streamline our communication and make our experience on IRC that much better.

I think we need to start having faith, rather than automatically shouldering doubts. We need to start thinking outside the box and accepting fresh new ideas. If it fails, we can always fall back on Undernet, but there's no harm in trying.

Sorry, double post.

Just as an addendum, Yacks:

James can't see private stuff without explicity modifying the code. This is the same situation that Undernet Admins have. A concerted effort must be made. Neither Unidernet Server Administrators nor in this case DJB Server Administrators receive all the information freely. Such a change in the code would be demonstrated when James opens the source-code to all, should it be introduced.

Intent and practice are two very, very different things. The road to hell and all that.

Internet Privacy concerns are one of the largest issues we face in the world today, not the DB. The world. It is a legal realm that has seen juggernauts like Microsoft and Facebook taken to court and defeated.

I'm not accusing anyone of having Machiavellian desires and planning on sitting around wanking themselves off to reading everyone's private communications on the server. What I'm saying is, we need to have the foresight to address these problems before we jump all in, and test new waters. We need to plan for eventualities, and we need to make sure that our members, and more importantly that the Dark Brotherhood is protected.

Like I said in my original post, if there is ever such a legal declaration that they adhere to the privacy laws of so & so (I actually prefer EU privacy laws in this regard), I am 100% for trying this new idea in limited distribution, to test it. There are more technical questions I have on top of it, but this specific issue is an issue that is being faced the world over, and we need to address it before it becomes a problem, and not after.

You're very right. Internet Privacy concerns have caused huge rifts in the world of today. But the only point there is that should James, or anyone else for that matter, actively change code in order to view such messages, they will be perverting the system.

There is no need to prepare for anything bearing that in mind. As I have said numerous times, It is only with concerted effort that any of the server admins (James and Jac) could ever unscramble private communication - the same system in place with Undernet. There is literally no difference between this new DJB server and Undernet other than the fact that this new server will be run by the DJB.

Of course, you may then argue that whilst the Undernet server admins have no interest in unscramble our messages, but James and Jac might. Well, that's where James' guarantee then comes into its own.

Yeah, can't say I'm a big fan of the new IRC server either. I'd echo the previously mentioned privacy concerns first. Yes, the Undernet administration can see things that go on in channels where they have X. However, they're a disinterested third party. Even if they were reading our channels or PM's, they're not going to care about content because they're not a part of our community.

Second, I think we're going to be leaving a lot of people that are possible returning members out in the cold. There are many people who haven't been active in quite some time that decide one day to fire up IRC and go check things out. That can lead to a return to activity. I know this is true because I've been that guy on several occasions over the years. Once the DJB moves off of Undernet, that person is going to fire up his IRC client, connect, and find nobody there. I think that'd qualify as a bad thing.

Finally, I love that the comment about "no more net splits" was brought up. Of course there won't be any, because we won't be on a network, we'll be on one single server. There have been plenty of times where I've had trouble connecting to a specific server on an IRC network (not just on Undernet), and have had to connect to an alternate one. This new DB IRC server is one server, not a network. If you have an issue connecting to it for whatever reason, we'll that's just too bad for you since there isn't any alternative. On top of that, we're putting pretty much all our non-email based communication on a single server if this plan goes forward. Site, Forums, and IRC. When said server is down (and severs are never 100% up, no matter how much we would like to think otherwise) it'll take down all of our communications in one fell swoop. Single points of failure that can take down your entire system of communication are less then awesome. By moving to this single server, we're first losing the redundancy of a network of servers, and placing all of our eggs communications wise in one basket on top of that.

Like all drastic infrastructure changes, it has both pros and cons.

I've been using the Undernet for over 12 years, and for me these outages are nothing more than a bump in the road. Those people that really want to get on Undernet IRC will learn how to, and those that don't want to - or are too lazy to figure it out - wouldn't want to use IRC anyway. My own Apprentice is a testament to that.

If we're going ahead and doing it anyway, then we may as well start off small and see how it works; the idea for #dbgaming and using a cross-server bot is a good idea. Let's first see where that goes before we commit to a full-scale change.

I still love this anti-Undernet thing some people are on about. You do realize that if you can't connect, but the other 30-60 people can, it is a problem on YOUR end. Not Undernet's. At any given time there are 30+ people in #db who idle almost 24/7 and the worst thing I've personally encountered is a client-side disconnection "* [10053] Software caused connection abort" because my internet or router is being dumb.

Yacks made mention of it, but I'd like to reiterate. Tal recently had a new member that couldn't connect to IRC. He emailed the egroup with his problem and half a dozen people responded right away with suggestions. It took maybe an hour before he announced the problem had been solved and popped up on IRC. If someone is having trouble with the program or the connections, then all they really have to do is ask.

The longest anyone should remain unable to connect to Undernet is a few minutes. If the server you dropped from is having problems, you simply click on "Options" check the Servers tab and connect to a different server. It's quite easy. You know, people used to laugh about netsplits when they happened... and they still don't happen all that often. If you see more than half of the channel suddenly disappear, then you're experiencing a netsplit. The easiest solution is to re-connect to a different server instead of waiting for the issue to resolve itself.

The part of this that confuses me the most is people ignoring or disliking the idea of linking the two #dbgaming's via bot. It does, quite simply, cover all your bases and would make both sides happy. With 98% of our IRC channels on the Undernet, the only people who would ever use just this DB IRC #dbgaming would be the people who are not making efforts to join #db or their unit channels and hang out with the rest of us. Otherwise, everyone would be connecting to both Undernet and DB server at the same time... and if they're on Undernet anyways... they could use that #dbgaming? The only group I can really think that would be into that is the TOR-only members we have who want to "legally" get CFs, but otherwise converse with teamspeak and the like.

Innovation is great and all, but why not use that innovation to improve upon the current system? Never go all-or-nothing when you can have it both ways. If it's a matter of the Fist Staff being unable to idle/monitor both the channels well... the Fist Staff still needs to hang out on Undernet for the rest of our channels? Or, if they don't want to do that, appoint someone(s) to oversee the #dbgaming you're not going to be in.

1) There are a number of pros and cons to switching networks at all. Once we decide we do want to leave Undernet, most assume we must then go to a private server. This is possible, and likely, but is not the only solution. 2) There are new members who hate IRC because they got disconnected once and will never come back... but I'm not convinced that there are a ton of these people who will never have issues with a private server. 3) Private servers have a few drawbacks, including privacy concerns, cost/time of upkeep, potential total downtime issues, and isolation. 4) It's good to have a backup plan, but the idea of moving a theoretically significant portion of the club into isolation from other portions of the club is, to me, a very bad idea. We should strive to keep as much of the club in the same place as possible. If it is decreed from On High that Undernet has fallen, and that irc.djb.com shall live forever let it be so for the organization as a whole, but don't allow a large portion of the club to become completely isolated. I do not personally think Undernet has died. I personally think that it could in the future, and as such, having a backup isn't a bad idea; but let's look at a way to bridge the gap between people who honestly can't at all connect to IRC and need to for gaming, and those of us who would like to keep gaming where we currently "reside" in an IRC sense, rather than excluding one or the other groups.

I just want to point out one thing about the new IRC server, and this is true with all IRC servers - it's a giant security hole. One of the reasons the big IRC networks have shrunk over the years is because the servers were taken down by whomever was hosting them. Those ports you connect to are giant holes that invite say a DDoS attack. The kind that crippled Undernet, Efnet and Dalnet in the late 90s and early 00s.

So if someone decides to take down the DB irc server the DB site and everything else on the server would go down as well?

Yes.

Sarcasm hat on: Well it's a good thing the DB has never done anything to piss off a former disgruntled member or anything.

But yea, despite the concerns about security, and my own concerns about privacy issues... I feel like it might be worth trying, as is happening. I am definitely not supportive of the idea that the DB just jump in feet first and hope for the best. A long series of stress tests and such would need to be implemented before we just abandon Undernet imo.

It might be worth figuring out the bandwidth usage, specs, whether heavy irc usage affects overall site performance and other such performance metrics, since this is literally, as people have pointed out, putting all of our eggs in one basket.