Don't bother with it, it's not worth the effort. Just get us the Chapter IV and Epilogue results... I'd rather not have the delay so we can finally get past all the GJW stuff.

No way. We're not giving you your way, Tar boy. :P Jac, take as long as you need. ;)

I'll be the first one not to complain about a delay like this. There were over a thousand games in Chapter 4, and while a lot of them were legitimate, i am aware of at least one personal war in which one person was trying to top another's total match count. Those matches certainly didn't fit the 3 day rule.

I'd encourage everyone else to realize that adhering the this rule is rather important in compiling the GJW statistics. Please accept this delay, as it will be worth it in legitimizing these results.

I know for a fact in Tarentum's efforts, I and others spent a lot of time organizing matches in one of our war channels "actively seeking" (BF) who should play, and when the playing would occur so as to maximize point legitimacy and efficiency.

So, for those that committed to similar organization and legitimacy, i should sincerely hope that you will accept this delay with open arms. A few small changes to match scoring over 1000 matches does make a difference, suprisingly.

Thanks - Pyralis

it'll be a few weeks

I'm not in Tarentum, dumbass. and I never will be. :P

Still... we've waited so long for this to be over...

whatever.

*Tal boy. I'm tired, so give me a break. :P

I love this idea of penalizing people for being as active as they can truly be. It just makes so much sense. I mean, why let the most active clan take first place? It'll appease the masses if we screw them in the ass and take away or devalue the matches they played. Hurray for this plan to fix the scores and make them more "legitimate"

Pyr, perhaps you did go through all that effort, but I for one had a very difficult time finding Chapter 4 matches outside of my clan. You for one were never available to play me. Therefore, I had to get matches how I could. The 3 a day rule seems kind of nitpicky for such a short chapter. There wasn't much time to play in the first place, so I don't think people should be penalized for being active. I didn't turn down a match the whole GJW, but many people turned me down or put me off. Therefore, it was hard for me to compete without getting a lot of matches off the same people. This rule is really going to hurt a lot of people that put in a lot of effort for apparently hardly any reason.

Something I forgot to mention in my last post:

This rule should be stricken from this specific GJW. Depending on whether you were clean or infected you had certain people you could play. Therefore, if you got unlucky, you didn't have many people to play. Most people were infected in Taldryan, so a lot of people played me a lot because they had no one else to play. Then, it went the other way for me. There weren't many infected from other clans around, so I didn't have many out of clan opponents, which meant I had to play my clan members over and over to keep up with others.

Having this rule is biased depending on whether you were clean or infected and therefore which opponents were available to you.

Wait a tic... lemme get this straight: There was a rule that said you could only do 3 matches a day, then after 3, the matches would each count less?

Umm (if I got that right)... that's pretty stupid - who's brainchild was that? I thought the idea was to 'encourage' activity... not cap it. I can understand limiting the amount of times you play a single individual, but the amount of times you play... period? I don't get it.

Luckily, I'm not a gamer :)

Ahhh... so it was how many times you played a single person each day... okay... - I recant my opinion :)

now I'll just let the people it concerns have at it :)

The "Rules of Engagement" are utter bullshit and I wouldn't advise anyone follow them. You play a game to have fun and be active, why in the fuck do you want to put so many rules and restrictions on everything? Everytime a new rule is applied because some people were bitching a majority of the people feel like just saying fuck it. Why bother trying if you're going to get cockblocked every time? How is that helping anything?

And, before Chapter 2 Jac told many ppl in #db that the 3/day rule was not going to be in affect because of the difficulty getting matches. Check the Chapter 2 results, they weren't redone to encompass the rule. The scores are how they should be.

But now that I've said that I guess you'll send him back another month or so so he can change all chapter 2 results, huh?

Given that somebody is going to be unhappy whichever way one goes about this then it's quite logical that theres only one solution: you do what it said in the rules.

If that means doing as Jac said, taking the 3-a-day rule into account, then that's whats going to have to happen. That may be "unfair" and it may have been "biased" toward certain Clans... but how different is that to any GJW or competition? Every Clan has different numbers of active members, meaning that kind of concept is going to be a problem all the time.

Furthermore, and I say this with experience of dealing with these situations myself in the past, changing rules after competitions have ended is far worse than keeping a controversial rule. It was made extremely clear at the beginning of Chapter 2, by myself might I add, and later reinforced by the Lord Marshal who handles the Rules of Engagement, that the 3-a-day rule was as true to the GJW as it is to any competition that does not have rules to say otherwise.

I'm sure it's a lot more unfair in that case to now turn around to people who otherwise would and could have played more matches but didn't in the knowledge of the 3-a-day rule and tell them "well, after all we don't mind now about if you had played more matches a day". That's equally unfair, as thats cheating a lot of people who could well have played more matches out of matches just because they read the news page, read the Rules of Engagement, and did what the rules said.

At the end of the day if history has taught us one thing its this:

If theres a problem, you do what was in writing at the START of the comp.

The three-per-day rule came after all the bitching about Lenzar and Raidoner playing a pissload of matches for the last Sith War, and other people doing the same things in JO/JA. It was stated in the beginning of the GJW that this rule would be followed, but was only "enforced" by people honest enough to do what the DC said.

I figured I'll chime in a little here, since I'm one of the people this is really going to affect. While I do agree with some of the things said about how this restricts activity...I also understand why the rule was made.

I honestly don't think it will make much difference, because Taldryan and Tarentum are going to take the biggest hits because of this, and both sides had major offenders (i.e. Lenzar and myself). My prediction is that this will merely bring the points down for both sides, but the results will remain the same.

The only thing I am dissipointed in is the complaining itself, and especially its timing and how it was done. Thus far this GJW has been marred by different events, but I thought with the releasing of Ch3 results and with Ch4 and Epilogue on the way...we could get this graded, reported, and out of our way. Unfortunately this will now delay the final results for quite some time...thank you complainers.

Also did you ever think of talking to the offenders (or DC members) DURING the chapters about this? This could have been nipped in the butt a LONG time ago if you had gone to the DC and complained, and if the DC had said "remember the 3-game rule is in effect", because many of us were under the impression that rule had gone out of practice due to the difficulty of finding matches (with the infected vs clean deal).

Therefore my only real gripe is this...instead of waiting until after results are released and only complaining because your Clan wasn't ahead...perhaps next time do it a little earlier. That would eliminate this regrading problem you've caused...and would make you look less like whiners.

I do not agree Kir. When the GJW started I remember I talked with Mike about the 3xday rule and I remember he clearly announced the enforcment of the rule more then once. Everyone had difficulties to find matches toward the end of the war but that's not an excuse to avoid rules the rest of the brotherhood is following just because you need to win. I don't know how you could have forgot of something so easy as this little and vital rule.

As for the complainer, it didn't even ever crossed my mind that in other clans this practive wasn't respected as it should in the first place so why complain or even check on this. After all if our job as CONs to make sure our Clans follow the rules.. yes I remember I head that somewhere..

Khan, just a few points. The rule was you can play 3 games against one individual in one day and after that the points you get for playing them go down...they don't go to zero, and it wasn't against the rules to play more than 3. Therefore as CON I could should encourage my members to play as many matches as they want because they still get points...just less of them, which is perfectly within the rules.

Therefore it doesn't even make sense for anyone to have "avoided" playing more than 3 matches. As long as you recognized that the points you would receive would decrease each time. I for one am not going to stem my Clans activity just because they won't receive "full" points.

Therefore I stand by what I said earlier. The people who complained did the same thing my Clan did, which honestly was the smart thing to do because you still get points. The rule didn't say, "No playing more than 3 matches", it said you just do so at a decreased point level. But the thing is those people were perfectly fine with the rule not being enforced right up until they found out they were behind...then all the sudden the rule was very important. The double standard is pretty obvious to me.

It was stated at the beginning of Chapter 2 that that was how the scores were going to be graded.

Noone was "bitching" about this until after the GJW concluded, because everyone thought that was how it was going to be graded. We all thought that's how it WAS being graded, until Pyralis asked Jac about it on IRC and Jac said it would take a lot of time to do it that way, and he wasn't sure if it was going to happen.

It's really unfair to change what the DC promised earlier in the GJW, especially when Clans based their playing strategies on that. It's what the rules said at the very beginning of Phase 2...

It's going to be affecting every single Clan, not just one. =P

Kir, there's not such a rule about "counting less". To avoid everyone to go look at the RoE directly here what it state about it, remember the ONLY part changed was the 3 per day instead of 3 per week:

14 Do not play the same opponent for the competitions more than three (3) times per week. You can play him/her more times - but those will not count towards the competition standings, only the first three will. This rule applies only to competitions that run for more than one day.

See ? THOSE WILL NOT COUNT. Now I've been trying to look at Mike's announcment about it but it's not in any of his reports, it must have been said in a normal post on the site, if anyone has a way to recall posts from specific members please do it and post it (or Mike, if you have a copy or whatnot tell us) since this point is getting out of hand.

"The Rules of Engagement are bullshit" doesn't really cut it as an excuse for not having followed the rules though... as this was announced by myself very clearly on the main news page for exactly that reason. Furthermore it was reinforced by the Lord Marshal in a subsequent news post and, if I recall correctly, both Jac and Mav stated it at some point in one of their reports or another.

More importantly, the Rules of Engagement actually state 3-a-week, meaning the 3-a-day rule was specific to this GJW, so the attitude a lot of people seem to want to carry around that the RoE are lame isn't even applicable in this case.

It also isn't a valid excuse to explain how you can justify it as fair to those who DID play by the rules... as they could have played a lot more matches. How can you now turn around and tell them that we actually would have counted the extra matches they could have played but didn't?

THAT is unfair. You DO NOT go changing rules AFTER a competition.

However... I am going to say one other thing... the chances of this actually affecting the Clan standings are zero. It's quite likely to do absolutely nothing other than drop the totals a litlte. Bitching now is pointless and only going to waste Jac's time and delay the results further. My advise is for everyone to just shut up and let him get on with it- as it's going to be a lot of work- and if you're going to bitch, bitch afterwards.

You're clearly all going to bitch afterwards anyway, so what exactly is anyone hoping to achieve by bitching right at this present moment?

Maybe it would make more sense to WAIT AND SEE IF IT'S GOING TO AFFECT THE RESULTS before bitching unnecessarily, as it's quite unlikely to actually make any dramatic difference.

Also... Khan, the thing about having the subsequent matches still could but not as much was mentioned... somewhere. I don't remember exactly where though, I presume Jac or Mav said it in a report or something.

I consider it "counter-bitching". If we let dweebs and morons like Lenzar complain all the time, we'd get nothing done. Hell, we'd still be waiting for Mai to give us the results of the last GJW...which Tal also won btw

You know what, here's an idea: leave this alone. Just shut up about it already. What's happening is happening.

Khan, as Goat says the rule was changed by Jac during the GJW to be a decreasing total of points instead of 3 matches then 0 points. Paying attention helps sometimes.

Also while saying "these rules are bullshit" isn't a reason they shouldn't be followed, Shadow does have a point when he says that some of these rules weren't written by people who know much about MPing in the specific platforms. We might want to take a look at them after this and rewrite them a bit.

Now I'm done with this thread, I don't think the standings will change much anyways. And if they do, well then I guess yay for double standards and whining.

Khan, as Goat says the rule was changed by Jac during the GJW to be a decreasing total of points instead of 3 matches then 0 points. Paying attention helps sometimes.

Also while saying "these rules are bullshit" isn't a reason they shouldn't be followed, Shadow does have a point when he says that some of these rules weren't written by people who know much about MPing in the specific platforms. We might want to take a look at them after this and rewrite them a bit.

Now I'm done with this thread, I don't think the standings will change much anyways. And if they do, well then I guess yay for double standards and whining.

Yeah, I do recall Jac saying that...

If you play someone more than 3 times (PERIOD, during the entire phase), future matches against them wouldn't be worth as many points. You would still get points for playing someone more than three times, but each match after the 3 would get reduced points.

Later down the road, however, I remember Goatham stating a very explicit news post saying that the 3 a day rule was in affect. I think I remember Mav and McKenna reinforcing that too.

Is it fair that their matches don't count?

Maybe not.

But are you saying it's fair that people who didn't play matches because they obeyed the rules is fair?

CERTAINLY not.

Those people followed the rules. They restricted the people they played against due to the rules. They limited the number of matches they played due to the rules.

So... we're going to tell them "actually, we're going to forget about the rules and just do it the way those who didn't read them did it?".

Now... out of the two, I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to know which is the fairer option.

Also... the Rules of Engagement ARE the way we have been doing it for 2+ years. They were written as a joint effort of the McKenna, myself, Yacko and Shaithis... now, if I am not mistaken, was Yacko not Sith High Warrior about two years ago? Also the person who helped us write the Rules of Engagement... hmmm.... so I don't quite understand why there is such a sudden uproar against a rule that's been around for years.

In this GJW it is especially true because you were able to play people in your own Clan. So, what was there to stop two people playing three-quad-ba-zillion-quillion-million matches in one day against each other for their Clan?

I'll tell you: nothing. That's why the 3-a-day rule exists.

If it didn't, people would do that, and it'd be a lot more unfair than it is right now. The 3-a-day rule exists to PROTECT your results from that kind of unfair abuse.

I seem to recall there being cases in the past go up before the HCI from people during GJWs "claiming" to be playing matches and getting found out as having not actually played any, but just losing on purpose or reporting fictitious matches.

This is hardly a new idea. It was revived during the Sith War yes, but that was because the Sith War made the mistake of not keeping the rule that had existed in the past, and later was forced to bring it back. People have abused it in the distant past, recent past, present day, meaning the rule will remain for as long as it has.

After all, if people can't play fair, they ruin it for everyone. But it's a lot better for it to be fair than for all those matches you and others have played to be worthless due to a couple of dimwhits playing 10000000 matches in one day- as what evidence do we have to actually prove they even played 1 match? None... thus the restriction.

I have an idea. The grading issue is already decided on. Results will be bitched over in the end, so save your breath, and relax. Stop flipping out. :P

So why dont we credit all those "extra" superflouous matches that Exar Kun "could" have played to them? I mean, if it increases their total to six instead of three, maybe that'd help them a bit...

Going by the attitude of "the other Clans bite so it wouldn't make any difference anyway" isn't exactly one thats going to get us anywhere.

That's equivalent to saying the Green Party isn't ever going to win so it's ok to do a few illegal smearing campaigns against them because they'd lose anyway.

Hardly an approach respected in a civilised society.

Anyone who MPs, at least the JO/JA knows that whoever made those rules had no idea what they were talking about. I don't know who made them and I really don't care. If you want to write up a document about how everyones going to play then do it based on how we already have been playing it for the last 2 years+. Things seemed to be working out well before this and now there's bitching - seems to happen a lot when rules are imposed on people.

And from what I saw no one followed the 3 a day rule. If you could get more then 3 matches from someone in a day you took them and were glad about it. Hell, 2 matches was an amazing achievment for the most part. People play more not to break rules but because a) its fun to play and b) they thought they were helping their clan win the GJW.

Explain to all the newer members why they're going to lose a bunch of the points they earned because someone bitched about a rule that hasnt been enforced since the start of this GJW and should be forgotten completely. Your basic response will be "why?" others will be, "then why did I do all that work?!" Sounds like we're trying to spread the annoyance through the entire membership. Woo freakin hoo

I hate to whine, but since it seems all of these bitchers are getting their way, I figure I'd chip in my two cents. This is really just delaying the results, because I could say that the three a day rule isn't feasible at all simply because I did not always report my matches the day I played them (usually it was late at night and the GJW site wouldn't accept them, but the next day it would take) I have looked through the rules of engagement and the rules outlined specifically for the GJW, and nowhere does it say you have to report the matches on the same day. I followed the rules in this aspect, so should those matches not count because of the 3-a-day rule and because of a technical problem that was in no way my fault?

CERTAINLY not. (using Xanos' wording =)

Sure, this is just a loophole that technically wouldn't change any of my scores really anyway; but it's just a good a reason to get rid of the three-a-day rule as your all's is to keep it, as they probably will not change any of the scores either. What I'm getting at is, this is really pointless. And Xanos I'm afraid you're wrong. You have just pointed out two choices to be decided upon, when really there are many more. And in these cases, you cannot just pick a choice that is either one extreme or another, there has to be a moderate solution or the only thing you will accomplish is pissing alot of people off. If you want to be fair, then you would have to go through each match on a case by case basis; but this method is counterproductive as the amount of time it would take to go through 1000 matches could be years. I mean, I'm all for just throwing out the three-a-day rule, but I also might be a bit biased. I saw a good point to your earlier argument that the people that followed this rule didn't get as many matches as they could have wanted; well, if they were so open for matches, then why wasn't I messaged on mIRC ONCE when I was on several different clan channels close to 12 hours a day, hell I was even messaging people that were signed up and didn't have an away message on but they didn;t seem to be there.

Anyway, this is getting pointless, and I do not believe that it is good to be unfair to some people while being fair to others, and have rules in place that have so many loopholes. We should be focusing on the other rules that people tend to forget because they don't have numbers on the end of them. I saw a few people playing with newbs in JO for the GJW and all they said the whole game was "gf, gf, gf, gf, gg, wanna play again". They in no way attempted to give some tips to the "newb" and they were even in the same clan. That is not being respectful, and I believe that it is also taking advantage of anothers lack of knowledge in a game. These are much more serious issues that should be addressed here instead of this crap that people are bitching about.

Actually, purposefully delaying your results to bypass the 3-per-day rule is dishonest, and goes against what this club stands for. Doing it on accident, oh well. And I know, everyone would start having "accidents." And I'm sorry, but the three-per-day rule came about from people bitching about Lenzar and a few others, and in turn, who played similarly this GJW. People bitch when shit isn't stacked in their favor. The Rules of Engagement suck my ass, and quite honestly, they're not sticking. I don't agree with them, and I don't believe they should be enforced. But my only argument was, if you say you're going to use it, and people plan to abide by the rules, don't let people walk all over them. Some of us actually do have enough integrity to do what we're "supposed to."

Everyone who played matches will earn points for their matches that they played. Its that simple. No one will have a match worth 0 points. The more times per day you played someone, the less its worth. However, that does not mean that at any point will a match be worth 0 points.

As for the issue of CEK being told something different than others, that is a seperate matter from the 3-a-day rule being calculated. This is something I will look into myself. However, theres no reason to insult other Clans over an obvious misunderstanding. Jac is making sure results are done correctly, but it will take longer, unfortanately.

Anyone else noticed the people that want to scrap the penalties are nearly all from Taldryan? :P

If you look at the GJW site, nowhere does it say that there is a 3 matches a day against an individual. Not on the MP guide and since the Rules of Engagement obviously weren't being followed due to the 3 a day rule, those guidelines were void.

So only if you were around when the rule was announced or if you just read all the news archives obssessively (which I'm sure most new members or people who have recently rejoined Clans don't), then you have no idea and no base to follow since nobody was following the guidelines being set down anyways.

I didn't hear any complaints when the Chapter II results were released about this 3 a day rule, why should it come now? Because people are complaining because they're losing and they're desperate to change that as quickly as possible.

Goat, since you didn't participate in this GJW you can't realize the amount of work and effort that some of the people have put into this competition, even if it's for a fictional club. Some of the things that I've seen people doing or done myself are strange, even desperate, anything to help their Clan. Do you really want to steal the points away from these hard-working people?

To all the people whining and complaining. Do you really want to add more work to Jac? Especially now that he's Grand Master and has even more things to do? Is it really going to change the standings enough to make a difference? Let's just get the final results and be done with it.

Anyone else noticed that almost all of the people who are whining about the scores are from Tarentum? :P There must be some connection here, hm Lenzar?

Greetings all,

Perhaps we should all just move on from this, it seems to me, this is accomplishing very little except bad feeling. I'm sure once the GJW results are known and we can move on, lessons will be learnt which will benefit all the members.

Thank you Godo. I said I was done with this thread but reading through it now I've noticed it is starting to get hostile. So I would suggest everyone just leave this be. Jac will decide how to grade the results, and they will be released. No amount of bitching from anyone will change how that is done. So lets just leave this alone.

Didn't participate? Son, you seem to forget I helped plan this competition, as did it drain so much out of me in the end that I flipped out and quit my position... don't lecture me on what I didn't put into this GJW.

Fact is... the 3-a-day rule was announced clearly on numerous occasions.

"But what if we didn't see the announcement?"

Tough. What about those who DID? Did you ever think about them?

What about those who restricted the number of matches they played? Who maximised the number of different opponents they played? Despite that it caused them to lose more matches and fight outside their Clan more?

You're saying we cheat them out of points they could have earned on behalf of those who failed to follow the rules? Right, that's fair of course...

The fact is quite simple. The announcement- of which there were more than one- was made as clear as the announcement the GJW had started. I don't seem to see there having been any problems with people not knowing there was a GJW going on just because they didn't happen to be around on that day. That argument doesn't hold up very much.

If your Consul however failed to communicate it down the line each week in reports or anything of that nature though well, thats a foul up in leadership on numerous levels, no argument there, but it's still not much of an excuse to cheat people out of matches they could have played.

You get points for your matches, albeit less than full points. Those who didn't play by following the rules won't get any points for the matches they didn't play due to the rules.

Doesn't take much to see which is fair. You're going to piss people off either way, there's only one fair solution however: you do what was said.

Uhh... that came off a bit more rough than I'd thought at the time, sorry, I'm not that bothered as I may have seemed- just what happens when you write something after having overslept and while in a rush to get into uni.