I've posted a new poll on whether or not it would be prudent to get our own IRC server instead of using the undernet. The poll will run for the next week. Please go vote.
I would be irresponsible not to list additional downsides that pertain very much to the DB's future...
1) We will not be able to maintain the inter-club nature of the ICTE.
2) We will not be able to participate in events set up by any inter-club organizations (i.e. the Outer Rim War) as most of these clubs use the undernet as a base of operations. We would instead become a rather isolationist gaming club when it comes to the internet. :P
3) Our ability to maintain diplomatic relations with clubs like the RS, NR5F, SV, ERC, or FES on an IRC level will no longer exist.
4) We would be asking new members to learn just one more thing that they need to do in order to successfully make it onto IRC and interact with other members.
5) We will, over the long-term, lose some prospective membership with allied clubs that also use the undernet. Believe it or not, there are members of the RS, SV, NR5F, etc that came to us either by the web or through IRC. Being able to maintain membership to both clubs and use the same undernet server is a convenience to us and them. Is it fair to ask them to be active on two IRC servers? Or are we simply asking them to choose which club they want to be more active in?
Now, while most of you may question the true "nature" and "activity" of our inter-club relations, changing to an exclusive server will sever any hope of cultivating any such stronger gaming relationship in the future. Since these are gaming clubs, that's a pretty important relationship. Choosing an exlusive server, in my opinion, hurts our future ability to be a cosmopolitan star wars club on IRC, and ultimately on the web.
Yes, apparently I am ignorant of this multiple server stuff. Disregard the disadvantages regarding a different server. I think this point is still valid though:
4) We would be asking new members to learn just one more thing that they need to do in order to successfully make it onto IRC and interact with other members.
Not to mention, as Predator says, if it's not broken, don't fix it. Perhaps my ignorance extends into the IRCops stuff, but I don't see any strong functional reasons why our own server would be especially beneficial to the DB. Perhaps someone would like to expand on these advantages? And registered nicks? What does this do for us?
Yes, apparently I am ignorant of this multiple server stuff. Disregard the disadvantages regarding a different server. I think this point is still valid though:
4) We would be asking new members to learn just one more thing that they need to do in order to successfully make it onto IRC and interact with other members.
Not to mention, as Predator says, if it's not broken, don't fix it. Perhaps my ignorance extends into the IRCops stuff, but I don't see any strong functional reasons why our own server would be especially beneficial to the DB. Perhaps someone would like to expand on these advantages? And registered nicks? What does this do for us?
A deleted dossier,
12 Jun, 2005
10:00 PM
I don't mean it wrong but if members find it too difficult to connect to an IRC server there's something wrong.
Aside from mIRC, there are a host of other IRC clients that are just as easy to use and available.
We have a Shadow Academy course dedicated to teaching members how to use IRC.
We have a technical support forum where members can ask for help on configuring IRC.
The "chat / irc guide" page includes information on how to connect to IRC.
I know Kir Katarn does this in his reports, but he includes basic information on how to connect to IRC.
My point is that there are many resources that simplify and aid in getting onto IRC. Since the new default (if popular opinion decides so) would be the DB IRC server, it would be no different than connecting to Undernet. I think there are a lot of positives with moving away from Undernet, including:
No longer having to register channels through their inefficient CService.
No longer having to DEAL with CService.
Personal administration of the server, including our own bot service.
Greater control of who is on the server, i.e. preventing morons from lurking in our channels.
The overall benefits lie in the greater control we will have. I presume that the IRCops (basically, IRC moderators) will consist of the Seneschal, Lord Archon, Jac, Chi, and probably some select others. To be honest, we have our own JA server, and some of the arguments against the IRC server (such as losing contact with other clubs, etc.) are arguments that can be used against using a private gaming server. Now, would you prefer using a private gaming server or using the public ones just for publicity reasons? I don't think so.
Well, way back in 2000 or so, when I was in the SV, the undernet had such severe trauma that we moved to our own IRC network (well, our own server on a much smaller, existing network). Regardless, we eventually moved back to undernet when such troubles were resolved.
Anyhow, at a point past that, in 2002 or so, I tried to persuade the SV to move to a different network again. Phoenix (leader of the SV) said he would switch servers if the EH would do so. Since the SV is no longer allied with the EH (and instead is with our DB) I would expect that if we were to move to another network, they would follow. And then it would certainly be possible that the RS and others could follow as well.
Personally, I say we move to TheZone network, run by a friend of mine back when I was in high school; we would of course have our own server on a small network, that is if our server was down we could still connect to one of the 5 or so other servers.
A deleted dossier,
12 Jun, 2005
10:00 PM
I'm opting to stay with Undernet. I don't see any big problems with it, and it's simply easier. Connecting to a second network is very simple, I agree, but not as simple as typing /join #OuterRim, or adding it to your autojoin list.
A lot of other clubs (like the RS) are on Undernet, and personally I think we should stay here. There isn't really anything wrong with where we are at now. We've always dealt with netsplits, etc, and I haven't seen an increase in them at all lately. The undernet is fine.
We seem to always want to change shit when there isn't really a big problem in the first place, that's why we get buttfucked with problems in the future. Leave well enough alone.
Well I have been a IRC network admin for many many years and as I write this I am active on 8 IRC servers with only one mIRC open so as to questions Yu's points 1-3: It is very simple to connect to more then one server in mIRC at a time, for instance if you were on the DJB server and wanted to get on undernet you would simply type "/server -m irc.undernet.org" and thats it a new server window will open and allow you to fuction like always. As to #4 there are many many ways to deal with this that I have worked on in the past and that we will be able to implment with the DJB, one is createing a mIRC scripted version that would allow people to install it and then start it, when it started they will only have to type their DB user name and there e-mail then select their clan from a drop down list and it will sive this information and log them into our server with that info and auto join them to the DB main channel and the Clan Channel and it will save that data to auto connect each time. Again in #5 we will not be forced to lose activity with our allied clubs, it is very simple to join 2 at once.
Also this will allow us many more privleges then what we have on Undernet, for one it will be more stable then undernet (as in no net splits) also their will be no server side lag. This will also allow us to maintain a true level of control with us haveing oper privleges, we will also have our own services wich can be maintained by the server admins and allow us to have full control over the channels. Also in the future we can custom code our services to interact with the DJB site database to auto register nicks when they register for the DB.
I ask you to at least give it a shot and if we dont like it in the end, undernets not going anywhere :P
Some of us already use multiple server windows. Yeah, I'm not adding a fourth one. Three is bad enough...and the DB IRC chans if they move aren't critical enough for me to close the Undernet ones.
A deleted dossier,
13 Jun, 2005
10:00 PM
Thinking about it I have to agree with a lot of what Pyralis has said. Most importantly the fact that we have over the years recruited a lot of members over IRC. Its another public front for us to reach out into the wider community. In just the last few weeks since the release of Revenge of the Sith we have seen dozens of random people wander into #sith and a number have been interested enough to join up.
The ICTE is probably the biggest issue though, I hadn't even thought about that one. While we can say its possible to use multiple server windows that in itself is not entirely true. What happens if somebody uses the online DB IRC Java Client, for example?
Plus, while people could use multiple servers... how many would? Its easy just to type /join #icte and have a look for games. It takes much more effort for people to bother to log into a different server and find the room.
"Its not hard" may be true... but look at when we installed JA+ onto the SA server. People whined. People bitched. Spears had to disable all the fun stuff. How hard is it just to click and url and download a mod? Its no harder than having to download an official Lucas Arts update. Yet people bitch, whine, and refuse to do it.
If we do do this all fine and dandy. No lag and no netsplits would be a good idea. However I do think we would need to accept that for the first month or two it would need to be a trial period. As in, if people end up disliking it, activity on IRC declines, and participation in the ICTE falls, we would need to be prepared to reassess the decision. I like the idea personally but if things like the ICTE fall we're going to have to be prepared to step back and say "this isn't working" not take the attitude we normally take of "shut up, its done now, quit whining" like with most controversial issues.
How about an intermediate idea ? We get a minimum server for official purposes - meetings, trivia, DB RPGs, gaming nights, summit and DC channels and everything we want to be undisturbed with and don't want to have the undernet problems of netsplits, lag and the X shortcomings.
On the other side, we keep the "socializing" channels (#db, Order channels) on Undernet so that people can find us and interact with us easily.
Clans can place their channels wherever they want,
If the financing is a problem, maybe we can "rent out" some capacity to our allies for a dollar or two a month - let's say a basic package of one IRCop slot and up to four channels for $1 with each additional channel being like 15 or 20 cents. If all five took this offer, we'd be sitting on five dollars less and thus probably not have that much remaining to finance.
I apologize if this was mentioned before, but I believed it hasn't. Regarding the fact of new members learning yet another step in IRC function, wouldn't it be better if we intergrate a web IRC applet into the site? Maybe the same type that Undernet.org has, which allows presence in more than one channel, and is pretty interactive. That way, those members who truly are IRC-challenged, won't have to go further than the site to log onto IRC.
But I agree with the majority of the replies here. We should just stick with the Undernet.
I would be irresponsible not to list additional downsides that pertain very much to the DB's future...
1) We will not be able to maintain the inter-club nature of the ICTE.
2) We will not be able to participate in events set up by any inter-club organizations (i.e. the Outer Rim War) as most of these clubs use the undernet as a base of operations. We would instead become a rather isolationist gaming club when it comes to the internet. :P
3) Our ability to maintain diplomatic relations with clubs like the RS, NR5F, SV, ERC, or FES on an IRC level will no longer exist.
4) We would be asking new members to learn just one more thing that they need to do in order to successfully make it onto IRC and interact with other members.
5) We will, over the long-term, lose some prospective membership with allied clubs that also use the undernet. Believe it or not, there are members of the RS, SV, NR5F, etc that came to us either by the web or through IRC. Being able to maintain membership to both clubs and use the same undernet server is a convenience to us and them. Is it fair to ask them to be active on two IRC servers? Or are we simply asking them to choose which club they want to be more active in?
Now, while most of you may question the true "nature" and "activity" of our inter-club relations, changing to an exclusive server will sever any hope of cultivating any such stronger gaming relationship in the future. Since these are gaming clubs, that's a pretty important relationship. Choosing an exlusive server, in my opinion, hurts our future ability to be a cosmopolitan star wars club on IRC, and ultimately on the web.
Please vote carefully.
Dark Adept Pyralis
And of course the most important reason....
If it's not broken don't fix it
In regards to comments about losing contact with other clubs thru Undernet...
mIRC allows you to connect to multiple servers at the same time. 'Nough said.
Yes, apparently I am ignorant of this multiple server stuff. Disregard the disadvantages regarding a different server. I think this point is still valid though:
4) We would be asking new members to learn just one more thing that they need to do in order to successfully make it onto IRC and interact with other members.
Not to mention, as Predator says, if it's not broken, don't fix it. Perhaps my ignorance extends into the IRCops stuff, but I don't see any strong functional reasons why our own server would be especially beneficial to the DB. Perhaps someone would like to expand on these advantages? And registered nicks? What does this do for us?
Yes, apparently I am ignorant of this multiple server stuff. Disregard the disadvantages regarding a different server. I think this point is still valid though:
4) We would be asking new members to learn just one more thing that they need to do in order to successfully make it onto IRC and interact with other members.
Not to mention, as Predator says, if it's not broken, don't fix it. Perhaps my ignorance extends into the IRCops stuff, but I don't see any strong functional reasons why our own server would be especially beneficial to the DB. Perhaps someone would like to expand on these advantages? And registered nicks? What does this do for us?
I don't mean it wrong but if members find it too difficult to connect to an IRC server there's something wrong.
My point is that there are many resources that simplify and aid in getting onto IRC. Since the new default (if popular opinion decides so) would be the DB IRC server, it would be no different than connecting to Undernet. I think there are a lot of positives with moving away from Undernet, including:
The overall benefits lie in the greater control we will have. I presume that the IRCops (basically, IRC moderators) will consist of the Seneschal, Lord Archon, Jac, Chi, and probably some select others. To be honest, we have our own JA server, and some of the arguments against the IRC server (such as losing contact with other clubs, etc.) are arguments that can be used against using a private gaming server. Now, would you prefer using a private gaming server or using the public ones just for publicity reasons? I don't think so.
Well, way back in 2000 or so, when I was in the SV, the undernet had such severe trauma that we moved to our own IRC network (well, our own server on a much smaller, existing network). Regardless, we eventually moved back to undernet when such troubles were resolved.
Anyhow, at a point past that, in 2002 or so, I tried to persuade the SV to move to a different network again. Phoenix (leader of the SV) said he would switch servers if the EH would do so. Since the SV is no longer allied with the EH (and instead is with our DB) I would expect that if we were to move to another network, they would follow. And then it would certainly be possible that the RS and others could follow as well.
Personally, I say we move to TheZone network, run by a friend of mine back when I was in high school; we would of course have our own server on a small network, that is if our server was down we could still connect to one of the 5 or so other servers.
I'm opting to stay with Undernet. I don't see any big problems with it, and it's simply easier. Connecting to a second network is very simple, I agree, but not as simple as typing /join #OuterRim, or adding it to your autojoin list.
A lot of other clubs (like the RS) are on Undernet, and personally I think we should stay here. There isn't really anything wrong with where we are at now. We've always dealt with netsplits, etc, and I haven't seen an increase in them at all lately. The undernet is fine.
We seem to always want to change shit when there isn't really a big problem in the first place, that's why we get buttfucked with problems in the future. Leave well enough alone.
Well I have been a IRC network admin for many many years and as I write this I am active on 8 IRC servers with only one mIRC open so as to questions Yu's points 1-3: It is very simple to connect to more then one server in mIRC at a time, for instance if you were on the DJB server and wanted to get on undernet you would simply type "/server -m irc.undernet.org" and thats it a new server window will open and allow you to fuction like always. As to #4 there are many many ways to deal with this that I have worked on in the past and that we will be able to implment with the DJB, one is createing a mIRC scripted version that would allow people to install it and then start it, when it started they will only have to type their DB user name and there e-mail then select their clan from a drop down list and it will sive this information and log them into our server with that info and auto join them to the DB main channel and the Clan Channel and it will save that data to auto connect each time. Again in #5 we will not be forced to lose activity with our allied clubs, it is very simple to join 2 at once.
Also this will allow us many more privleges then what we have on Undernet, for one it will be more stable then undernet (as in no net splits) also their will be no server side lag. This will also allow us to maintain a true level of control with us haveing oper privleges, we will also have our own services wich can be maintained by the server admins and allow us to have full control over the channels. Also in the future we can custom code our services to interact with the DJB site database to auto register nicks when they register for the DB.
I ask you to at least give it a shot and if we dont like it in the end, undernets not going anywhere :P
Some of us already use multiple server windows. Yeah, I'm not adding a fourth one. Three is bad enough...and the DB IRC chans if they move aren't critical enough for me to close the Undernet ones.
Thinking about it I have to agree with a lot of what Pyralis has said. Most importantly the fact that we have over the years recruited a lot of members over IRC. Its another public front for us to reach out into the wider community. In just the last few weeks since the release of Revenge of the Sith we have seen dozens of random people wander into #sith and a number have been interested enough to join up.
The ICTE is probably the biggest issue though, I hadn't even thought about that one. While we can say its possible to use multiple server windows that in itself is not entirely true. What happens if somebody uses the online DB IRC Java Client, for example?
Plus, while people could use multiple servers... how many would? Its easy just to type /join #icte and have a look for games. It takes much more effort for people to bother to log into a different server and find the room.
"Its not hard" may be true... but look at when we installed JA+ onto the SA server. People whined. People bitched. Spears had to disable all the fun stuff. How hard is it just to click and url and download a mod? Its no harder than having to download an official Lucas Arts update. Yet people bitch, whine, and refuse to do it.
If we do do this all fine and dandy. No lag and no netsplits would be a good idea. However I do think we would need to accept that for the first month or two it would need to be a trial period. As in, if people end up disliking it, activity on IRC declines, and participation in the ICTE falls, we would need to be prepared to reassess the decision. I like the idea personally but if things like the ICTE fall we're going to have to be prepared to step back and say "this isn't working" not take the attitude we normally take of "shut up, its done now, quit whining" like with most controversial issues.
How about an intermediate idea ? We get a minimum server for official purposes - meetings, trivia, DB RPGs, gaming nights, summit and DC channels and everything we want to be undisturbed with and don't want to have the undernet problems of netsplits, lag and the X shortcomings.
On the other side, we keep the "socializing" channels (#db, Order channels) on Undernet so that people can find us and interact with us easily.
Clans can place their channels wherever they want,
If the financing is a problem, maybe we can "rent out" some capacity to our allies for a dollar or two a month - let's say a basic package of one IRCop slot and up to four channels for $1 with each additional channel being like 15 or 20 cents. If all five took this offer, we'd be sitting on five dollars less and thus probably not have that much remaining to finance.
Well money is not an issuse here, I have offerd free use of my shells (I own a shell hosting business) and I will allow 3 dedicated servers to DB use
I apologize if this was mentioned before, but I believed it hasn't. Regarding the fact of new members learning yet another step in IRC function, wouldn't it be better if we intergrate a web IRC applet into the site? Maybe the same type that Undernet.org has, which allows presence in more than one channel, and is pretty interactive. That way, those members who truly are IRC-challenged, won't have to go further than the site to log onto IRC.
But I agree with the majority of the replies here. We should just stick with the Undernet.