Okay friends. I'm all about the people and the people have been sending me messages about splitting the fiction competitions in half between the senior members and the junior members. I have created a poll to hear how you reall feel. Vote here!
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I think it would be fun to have a section of the Vendetta for DJK's and below. Flex the recruiting and retention and journeyman development muscle of all the Clouses.
Woohoo! Someone using the Polling Centre!
I know this isn't an option, and I'm probably a minority, but it might be worth having a third split for the higher EQs/Elders, as it wouldn't be fair on the EQ1s to have the same opponent as assigned to those of DJM rank
I would like this explained a bit better before I vote. If the intention is to create two separate pools of submissions for a single fiction competition, with those pools being defined by rank, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea. There are some merits to it, and so long as it was properly weighted participation wise to account for fewer such members in Houses, it could be interesting.
On the other hand, I would be highly against have two separate fiction competitions, with a member only able to enter one based on his or her rank. I don't think we should prevent members from participating in things because of rank.
+1 for Mav's comment.
The answer depends on the problem we are trying to solve.
If it's a problem where younger members are not getting a chance to win competitions because they are going against too much experience, then the idea has merit in the manner of separate pools graded as one event but awarded separately (not sure I like giving out more gold novae for less stringent competition, though).
If it's an idea designed to see what clan/house has the best new members or retention practices, I think the idea is seriously flawed and there are better ways to go about the same.
So, I voted no. Jac
I echo Jac here in that i remember when i was new and felt it wasn't even worth it to enter Fiction events because i knew i wasn't going to place. When as a journeyman i was going up against people like Raken I felt overwhelmed. I think a two bracket system for each event would be nice. If you took the level of awards down a notch i don't think anyone would mind.
I might be blowing steam out my butt, but (heh) lowering the awards seems counter productive. We're trying to promote activity and participation, right? Dropping the reward in a big event like this is dropping expectations, at least how I see it. I know this isn't how things shake out here, because we have our rules in place, but to me it's like giving huge trophies to all the kids in the little league...no one's a loser, right? Bunch of political correct BS.
If there's too many of the Elders or even high-ranking Equites taking the top spots all the damn time, then yeah, I can back a move to break the ranks up into their own brackets. Then, down the line, maybe those who've continually placed highest the most out of the two brackets can be declared the overall fiction champ(s). But, if there's enough variety in Journeymen, Equites and Elders taking top honors, then I see no need for a bracket.
I'm not voting until I see some more info on this and more discussion.
I'm not sure I support the idea of grading based on ranks. I mean, writing skill is not really rank dependent as can be seen from some of the Elder entries in past vendettas :P And to try and separate based on skill-level would be a tremendous, if not impossible, pain in the ass. If you do decide to split up the judging to offer more incentive to participate for vendettas, lowering the rewards doesn't really work because we only have the three placement medals (novae). For regular competitions it might work because you could just drop the Crescent level, but those are usually participation-based to begin with.
What I'd like to see is a bigger focus on encouraging people to write when it's not for a competition. Writing for fun, to get feedback, or just to improve your own skills. Trying to get better at writing fiction during these stress-filled, competitive spurts isn't going to work. And the only way to get better at writing is to just keep writing more and more (and read).
Why not take the higher placing entries and use them as examples for others? I mean, reading to see what the top 10 did/how they approached an event would go a long way to helping a struggling write learn the ropes. Emulation is really useful when you're new to writing, especially for the DB. With our character sheets and canon and rules and limits, writing for the DB is a lot harder than writing regular old SW fanfiction.
Agreed. When I first started writing, back in the EH, I sucked. Little 1-2 page things. Now I'm lucky if my stories are shorter than 10 , and the grammar and vocabulary are much gooder.
...yeah. I got better with a lot of practice and a lot of reading. I read all the Star Wars books that caught my attention, and tried to emulate Stackpole, Zahn, Allston and the like. So, if the aim became improvement of member's writing skill, I wouldn't object to utilizing my work for such a purpose. I'm not one of our "master writers", but I don't think I'm any slouch at it either.
I think I may be getting a bit off the original purpose of this news post, so I'm gonna refrain from commenting for a bit...
Assuming that the poll is asking if each writing event should be divided into an equite+ division and a journeyman division, I fully support such a change.
Some data...
Looking at the winners of the most recent high-level writing comps*:
Number of top 3 placings for all writing events: 113 Number and percentage of top 3 placings for GMs: 3 = 3% (well done, Sarin!) Number and percentage of top 3 placings for Elders: 23 = 20% Number and percentage of top 3 placings for Equites: 69 = 61% Number and percentage of top 3 placings for Journeymen: 18 = 16%
Number of top 3 placings for all non-runon writing events: 69 Number and percentage of top 3 placings for GMs: 3 = 4% (well done, Sarin!) Number and percentage of top 3 placings for Elders: 20 = 29% Number and percentage of top 3 placings for Equites: 36 = 52% Number and percentage of top 3 placings for Journeymen: 10 = 15%
(*High-level writing comps: The Crusade prologue, the Voice's December comps, HOU-Tar feud, Arc-Pla feud, SP-NS feud, and Horizons)
Admittedly, this isnt the most accurate of analyses. I dont have access to participation numbers, specifically the number of each class that participated in each event. So I'm basing this quick-and-dirty study on only the results.
Based on those results, journeymen aren't competitive in writing events. For being the bulk of the DB membership, they don't perform well against equite+ competitors. In Horizon's individual writing events, only 2 journeyman placed in the top 3 of any event. And those two placed in week 2's joint writing event (Arden and Ronovi took 1st, Graus and Solus Gar took 2nd), so not one journeyman won a Nova in Horizons on their own.
We all submit entries that we know aren't going to win; participation points ftw. But tis very disheartening to know you won't win for a long, long time. If we want more participation from newer members, we should give them a chance to compete against members of equal rank. Rank does not equal skill, but it's the best measure we have.
A high-level character is easier to use than a low-level character. Take the Krayiss Assassination event. I could have written an entire fiction using only my character, who, being a DJM, is a demi-god. I am only constrained by which of the many Force Powers I select on my character sheet. And the story could have been a standard duel. She has her tricks, I have mine, nothing too complicated. A journeyman, on the other hand, had to include other characters and had to devise a method by which his group took down the elder. He couldn't go mano-a-mano with Tor Siva because Siva is a demi-god and journeymen are not. He had a lot more limitations and complications to his story than I had for mine (spoiler alert: I didn't write me and Siva dancing the dance fatale for my entry.) Having a journeyman division levels the playing field. All competitors face the same challenges within their division. Well, eq1's and eq2's might still have some problems, but welcome to the big time, warriors, priests, and templars :D
With the Dark Crusade consuming the first two weeks of the next 7-8 months followed by a GJW, we're not going to have much time for non-Crusade competitions. Small comps greatly help a writer's development: more practice, more time with his character, more time with friends' characters, and feedback and constructive criticism from the judges (not always, but more likely than in GJW's). If GJW's and the Crusade are final exams, then small comps are weekly quizzes and homework. Finals are not for developing, they're for showing what you know and can do. Giving journeymen their own division would make their exams more quizzical (analogy fail, but roll with it.)
Consequences:
Dilution of the value of Novae: I'm not concerned. I won my division, they won theirs, congratulations to us both. Journeymen who win consistently don't stay journeymen for very long. I doubt we'll see a bunch of DJK's with cases of Novae and 1000+ prestige.
People staying DJK to win their division: I'm not concerned. Again, journeymen who win consistently don't stay journeymen for very long. Those who voluntarily decline equite status just to win comps will only humiliate themselves. Nut up, cowards, and come play with the big boys and girls.
Opt-out ability: Not a consequence, but I didn't know where else to put this. Allow for journeymen to opt out of their division and write with the big boys and girls. The rule could be "By default, all journeymen entries will be scored in the journeymen division. If a journeyman wants to compete in the equite+ division, s/he must state that at the top of their entry."
I love breaking the comments.
Consequences:
Dilution of the value of Novae: I'm not concerned. I won my division, they won theirs, congratulations to us both. Journeymen who win consistently don't stay journeymen for very long. I doubt we'll see a bunch of DJK's with cases of Novae and 1000+ prestige.
People staying DJK to win their division: I'm not concerned. Again, journeymen who win consistently don't stay journeymen for very long. Those who voluntarily decline equite status just to win comps will only humiliate themselves. Nut up, cowards, and come play with the big boys and girls.
Opt-out ability: Not a consequence, but I didn't know where else to put this. Allow for journeymen to opt out of their division and write with the big boys and girls. The rule could be "By default, all journeymen entries will be scored in the journeymen division. If a journeyman wants to compete in the equite+ division, s/he must state that at the top of their entry."
I was thinking that you could change the overall difficulty of the opponent or task to be set to something like "Enemy is equivalent to your rank and must be fought one-on-one" or "Enemy is equivalent to one rank higher than your own and you are allowed only one NPC companion equivalent to one rank lower than your own." This way the writing circumstances are leveled and there should be no need to splitting the competition. For instance, Tor Silva could have been Rank +2 difficulty with allowance for one NPC companion of Rank +1 OR two NPCs, one Rank +0 and one Rank -1.
I personally accept that my writing skill is sub-par and not even close to competitive, but when I read that my opponent is nigh-on impossible for my character to face then I have absolutely no will or drive to submit anything, not even a minimum length piece in which I doom my character to death, or a farcical piece where the Star Chamber defeats my opponent for me.
I do, however, agree with Troutrooper's posts above.
This is a hard subject. I can understand that units hold journeymen-only competitions to foster activity and as some form of training (if they give feedback on it). But for large scale events that concern the entire club, it's "kill or be killed". Everyone here; from the GM's, to the lower journeymen ranks, have never had this particular favor in past events. So I don't think we should introduce something like this.
I am for a sort of "level scaling" where the rank, stats, and force powers of the targets change depending on your own rank. This keeps is fair between everyone who can shoot lighting out of their ass and those that can't even wield a saber yet.
The fact remains that you only get good in writing when you do it often. If multiple newbies to writing come in and expect to place in the top 3, then why should the Brotherhood lower its standards just to please them?
I can see every point made here but I am looking at this from my point of veiw and that is a bit different. When I joined I entered EVERYTHING I could. I knew my storys and fiction have Never been at the level of some peoples here nor will they ever be that being said I like the idea of giving the lower levels a shot at some higher awards..... Not to say they couldnt beat out a Raken or (really good writer put name in here) I did vote and I stand by that vote.
heres the thing every one can enter and any one can win but some times it is overwhelming to see the higher ranks you are going agained and thinking OH they are going to be so much better I will never win.
I did win how ever one contest or at least placed in one that I never thought I would. I went back and thanked Muz becasue It was his contest. Not ever one can win but the changes for the lower levels to feel they can get a medal for there work might not be a bad thing. Same contest two sets of awards given. Maybe not every writing contest would do this try it on one of the contests. See what people think. See what happens. I dont know what the plan is I am sure the leadership will read though all the comments here and take a look at what they could do to make this work.
Nice to see so many comments though and different ideas on the matter. You know I still dont get scared in big events to this day knowing that I wont place but i remeber somethign else each entry counts! I may not win but I tryed and that is what helps my house more then winning.
THANK YOU leadership for wanting to try something new. Thank you Leadership for all your hard work!
My 2c.
Personally, I absolutely love the idea of using different fictional prompts for the lower ranks. Not only does it mean they can use their own characters more like TT said, it gives them "Achievable" objectives. Right now, when there's a DJK writing a story, where they end up having to fight a DJM level entity, they basically have to pull in an elder member from their Clan, or add a GM into the story to dues ex / be the hero. They can't feasibly write the story where they kick the DJMs ass without losing realism points.
The beautiful part in my mind, is that even with two fiction prompts, unless you actively want to split off the journeymen for some reason (whether it be so they can just thunderdome it out, or other reasons), you can still grade everyone together. With the grading rubrics that have been introduced, two fiction prompts, as long as they have the same base requirements, do not have to mean separate competitions. Everything is getting graded on the same scale, so they can be graded all as one.
^ This.
I concur with the thrust of what Trout and some of the others are saying. While personally I'm less concerned about my entries being judged against the heavy hitters, the fiction placements I had in Horizons showed that, the real problem I had in both the Dark Crusade RO and the assassination mission is that Arden (not me, the writer) was in way over his head. Heck, my RO team was way over their collective heads in week 2 and 3 since our best was an EQ2. Hence it took away chances for good character development and, honestly, I spent more time devising a realistic way to make the whole thing work then on other aspects of the plot.
Now there are some journeymen here that can write with the big kids. I don't think anyone questions that. However, when they're up against an IC opponent so far out of their league, it does create something of a handicap. Thus, while separate "divisions" work I think a more appropriate way to handle it just might be a tiered opponent. For example, the targets could be a DJM/GM type master, his EQ3-4 ish apprentice, and either his DJK-EQ1 apprentice or some sort of elite non-force user/critter/something along those lines. Each person could write about taking down a target that would be a proper challenge for them and perhaps write it as part of a larger operation. Maybe the master is in the dark scary temple, the apprentice is guarding the entrance, and the third person/thing is protecting the bunker on the outskirts of the base or something.
Just my .02 Credits.
Thanks everyone. I appreciate the feedback and comments.
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