Grand Master Report #42


Grand Master Report #42


Greetings everyone and welcome to my 42nd report as your Grand Master. I am returning the United States this weekend and look forward to a reunion with my family. I will be without consistent internet until Saturday and thought now would be a good time to get out a quick update.


Administrative Data

1) Viv: Viv has been promoted to EQ4 for his exceptional work as the Consul of Clan Plagueis and for his consistent work and dedication to the Dark Brotherhood over the past several years. Please take the time to congratulate Viv on his big promotion.

2) Clan Tarentum, House Mortis: Clan Tarentum has announced the creation of House Mortis. This is a great step forward for Tarentum and is an indicator of the fantastic work they have put in over the past six months. The new house pays homage to Tarentum's past while it looks to blaze a new path forward. Congrats on Tarentum for their energy and hard work to make this happen.

3) Plagueis Consul: I have decided to extend the application period for the position of Plagueis Consul until 26 August. We received three excellent applications, but I would like to see a wider pool of potential applications prior to making a decision. Please get your apps in to Mav, Jac, and I.


Paths: Ranks


The Dark Council, Elders, and various members have reviewed, debated, and massaged the new ranks for our upcoming Paths. The above graphic is the approved list for our new Mercenary Path, Grey Path, and Loyalist Path. The feedback from out leaders during the discussion phase of the new ranks was tremendous and I am satisfied with the current list (with the caveat that I am not entirely against making minor tweaks in the future).

One point of contention associated with the Loyalists ranks is worth mentioning. A few members had concern that the Military Rank Structure would interfere with our existing fictional Clan Military systems. In the end I decided to go with a Star Wars Canon Rank Structure rather than implementing another Greek/Spartan/Whatever system. I made this decision because the military ranks are familiar and because I prefer the military theme of the Loyalists.

We will see a report from Mav in the near future that discusses our planned phased implementation of the Path system. More to follow.


Pel Asks: Sarin, why are the pre-split Grand Master's not included in the Star Chamber? A: This is a great question with a simple answer. The Star Chamber is a post split construct that has never included the pre-split Grand Masters. Over the past 12 years we have never included the pre-split Grand Master's in the decision making processes of the Star Chamber. This includes the voting of Grand Masters and the use of our veto ability on certain DJB decisions. The addition of new Star Chamber articles to the Covenant only seek to formalize this process. *That is not to say that we don't appreciate the pre-split GMs.

Howie Asks: Where is the balance between giving second chances and holding people accountable? A: Timely question Howie. Mav and I have discussed this a lot over the past few days. Especially as we see some of our recent second chance members apply for multiple positions at multiple levels of responsibility. Where is the balance? I'm not entirely sure, but I think you will find that there are lot of members out there who will claim that they feel they are blackballed while others appear to receive second chances. I probably need to do a better job at messaging why some selections are made and others are not. My take: If a member has done something wrong in our club, but they have shown what appears to be genuine contrition for what they have done...I'm going to be much more likely to select them for positions. Compare that to a member who has done something wrong, but has taken on a tone of spite and arrogance. That member might find that I'm less willing to grant them positions. Throw on top of all of that is the offense a member made. If a member cheated in our club, I'm probably not going to put them in a position where they can judge/manage in the field they cheated.

Arden Asks: Sarin, will you consider making Telegram and official communications platform? A: Yes. I'm considering it right now. I know that some members have concerns with exclusive/inclusive chat programs, but I'm more concerned with actual usage. Telegram's mobile capability makes it a genuine on the go, immediate communication platform. Quite frankly, I find it superior to mIRC. I think the numbers also show that our members agree with me. 1000k messages in DB Chat on Telegram in a 24 hour period (yes, a large volume of them are cat pictures and nonsense)....vs 25 non dbb0t messages in DB chat on mIRC.


Alright everyone. I pack out my apartment this morning and won't have a solid internet access until Saturday. I will have access to email through this period, but only during certain windows of time each day. Stay tuned for more Path details and more website updates over the next few days.

Grand Master Pravus aka Sarin

Gratz Viv, Tar! Ranks are looking good!

That was not my question, that was Hades's question, and a very good one. My question never got answered. Just saying.

You received a million messages in the DB chat on Telegram in a 24 hour period? :P

I'm going to assume you mean 1000, and of those 950 or so will most likely have been food pictures or random stickers... just saying. :P

Just bare in mind that Telegram needs a cell phone, which some of us refuse to get...!

Maybe we should just get with the times and join the masses who are chained to their touch-screens, and return to the Borg collective. We are one, but happy.

You don't require a cell phone for Telegram-- you can always just use the web-client directly in a browser.

You need a number to actually sign up, yeah, but from memory, I think someone once said you can just create one of those digital numbers in gmail or whatever it was instead of needing to use an actual mobile number? (I could be talking garbage here, but am pretty sure someone said that.)

Telegram has made it so you can no longer sign up with VoIP numbers, you'll need a real physical phone number.

A curiosity question, on my part - What prompted the choice of Army ranks for Loyalists, and not Navy, despite seeing more Navy-types in the movies?

My guess would be the fact that someone's a SuperfancyRank in the Army, not the Navy :P

Awesome new ranks there, good ser!

I also have to admit, I do like the Mercenary ranks FAR more than any other rank system. With Jedi in a close second, of course ser.

Mirus: More of our members have historically associated Imperial Navy ranks with themselves than Army ranks.

Pel: If you want to send me your question I can do my best to answer it :)

So essentially a choice to differentiate from, say, Clan militaries? I like that.

Seems very weird to see long standing Krath/Obbie members with 'Sith' ranks. I generally like them but think moving 'Acolyte' and keeping INI, APP and NOV could be looked at again - do we really need INI at all?

In some ways, Mirus - it is impossible to differentiate entirely though, and so we do have some overlap with Clan militaries that use General etc.

Mark: INI is a placeholder rank, it is possible we could ditch it but I like its utility in join processes. The Acolyte change was because of the other two ranks.

Damn, and I just finished memorizing the old journeyman ranks :P

Oh, they dropped the VoiP option for Telegram? Didn't know that, my mistake, sorry.

As for ranks, I never was that much a fan of PRT or GRD, and always thought of "Sith Acolyte" as a pretty cool title in video games and stuff, so quite happy with the swaps. Only one I'm a bit iffy on is "Moff" as I thought that's more political governor than military officer, but guess it's only EL2 so not many people anyway.

As a note: Non-Force users are not yet an option. T hey will be soon. Sarin and my reports got crossed in timing slightly because of his return to the States. You will have lots of details on the path to path implementation (hah! ha...ha...) later today. I am waiting for a couple of emails but will be pushing my report before the afternoon.

Not a fan of how popular Telegram is becoming, but that's life. I still miss having more people on the IRC to talk to.

Generally, I like the ranks, though I miss my "Dark Jedi" with my Knight. I'm surprised we jumped up Grand Moff in favour for Grand General. Personally, I love the Moff ranks.

That is all.

For the most part, I like the new Rank and Path system.

I find the inclusion of "Moff" (which is literally a planetary or system Governor, not a rank) to be extremely odd, and possibly worth revisiting, as it makes no real sense with military theme.

I also think the whole mystical theme of the Gray ranks is opposed to how the majority of Gray Jedi have been depicted in canon, as well as how most of the Gray members in the club play their own characters (far less concerned with the vagaries of philosophy and the Force, and more pragmatic in their outlook - something Romanesque or similar to the old Obelisk ranks might have been more appropriate).

Beyond that, though, I'm just really excited to see the Path changes actually taking place. It's a huge difference from the Brotherhood of five or ten years ago, where nothing ever got completed. Kudos, and thanks to everyone involved for all their hard work on making this happen.

Sarin, will you consider making Telegram and official communications platform?

Just something to be aware of. If you save someone's telephone number in your contacts on your mobile ("here.. take my number please?"), and you connect via Telegram, your OWN telephone number is automatically visible to those people on Telegram.

"Just something to be aware of. If you save someone's telephone number in your contacts on your mobile ("here.. take my number please?"), and you connect via Telegram, your OWN telephone number is automatically visible to those people on Telegram."

Seems reasonable. They gave you their number and you put it in your contacts. Why wouldn't it be visible?

Mercenary ranks are fricken awesome.

Gg Viv ;)

Seems reasonable. They gave you their number and you put it in your contacts. Why wouldn't it be visible?

Your daughter is given a phone number by a stranger to add to her contacts. And she installs telegram. And suddenly a possible pedophile sees her number.

It is one example that doesn't have to happen. I am just telling this for people to be aware of. If you feel fine with adding a person's number and give out your own automacially.. do it. You can still decide yourself and I don't forbid anyone to use Telegram this way.

Congrats Viv!

I really don't think that Telegram should be an official platform until it's actually possible to moderate it at least as well as WhatsApp. As in, set admins for groups, so if someone who created a group leaves, it passes to the next admin, instead of having no owner, and so, if something bad happens, the creator of the group or the person who added someone doesn't need to be on to perform damage control.

Basically, for a club like the DJB where we care a lot about security, choosing such a platform with poor moderation capabilities seems like a really bad idea. Other than that, I love Telegram and find it really odd they left those things out.

Question - are members that were Sith before the change meant to have no 'tradition'?

Thanks for the backup, Pel! Congrats to Viv! Also, I was also questioning the Moff rank. Though if you were to include Moff, I would certainly have Grand Moff instead of Grand General. That rank IS canon, which is what we are striving for, correct?

Sildrin, I would strongly advise DB members not to be adding each other's phone numbers with Telegram when they can start chats using the Telegram Usernames. The situation you present doesn't seem exclusive to Telegram in that if someone gives you their phone number on any platform and you contact them via that phone number it will share your number. My feeling is I strongly discourage any member sharing of phone numbers, which is why I dislike WhatsApp, and that applies to Telegram too. I know that limits Contact-addition, but I don't care. Love you guys. Don't want all of you to have my phone #. :p

Locke, good points on moderation. This, along with the inability to set up a permanent channel people can join and leave as they please, is the primary reason we haven't pushed more for Telegram as official. However, it beats out IRC on so many levels as a communication platform, especially for those of us with limited desktop time and inability to get IRC working over networks we don't own (my school, for instance).

Terran, RE: Moff, this rank comes from the canon as above General and below Grand General.

Locke, good points on moderation. This, along with the inability to set up a permanent channel people can join and leave as they please, is the primary reason we haven't pushed more for Telegram as official. However, it beats out IRC on so many levels as a communication platform, especially for those of us with limited desktop time and inability to get IRC working over networks we don't own (my school, for instance).

I would highly suggest people who want these admin features to request it on Telegram's twitter account (the only real feedback venue I could find on their site). Perhaps Yacks or someone with access to the official DJB account could request on the club's behalf. The platform is under constant development. If enough people request the feature then the devs will probably implement it.

Yeah. It is the thing about a lot of chat apps: handing out phone numbers.

About moderation: I didnt try Chatango yet (

It has an app and also can be included into webpages. It offers quite a variety of moderation settings which are similar to those of IRC: - you can setup a "group" (aka channel, I assume) - User Bans - add Moderators / remove / manage - restrictions of chats (verified users, flood control,) - banned words Details here about moderation stuff.

Maybe someone here is interested in checking it out if it may be something good as an official stuff for DJB.

Congratulations Vivackus

Good job tarentum

I say no to telegram. One for the security, or lack of, as was pointed out. But also, some folks don't have great phones that can use certain apps.

Great report boss

For some context about what Sil's talking about, btw, I gave my number to her and Trev a few years back, and I believe she added it to her phone, but I never had hers. Fast forward to Telegram, told her my contact was @Xanos and she messaged me-- but I could see her mobile number. Wha? Both got confused. Turned out, because she had my phone number in her contacts list, Telegram knew that, and consequently-- even though she only messaged @Xanos-- it knew that @Xanos was the same number that she had stored in her contacts, and that then made it show me her phone number as well, even though I didn't know it, and she had messaged @Xanos.

Thankfully, Sil has yet to murder me (emphasis on the "yet" :P), but just something for anyone who's ever noted down someone else's number to bare in mind, even if they only intended to message someone on Telegram using their Telegram name and not actually their mobile.

Sil, I'll definitely check out Chatango. From a cursory glance it could be useful. I appreciate highlighting it.

My hope is also what Turel said, that with additional development will come more features for Telegram. I've requested them via Twitter before and I know several others have, from a variety of communities. So hopefully... :)

The one thing is, DB members have been sharing phone numbers since before mobile phones. Believe me. :p I want to discourage it, but we have to be realistic about it, too. While I never want to embrace a platform that FORCES phone number sharing like WhatsApp, at some point it happens.

TL;dr If I've ever given you my phone number sometime in the distant past, and you message me on Telegram, I'll see yours :P

Mav, regarding Moffs, Wookieepedia says the following:

Moff was a rank held by sector governors of the First Galactic Empire. In the fifth year of Emperor Sheev Palpatine's reign, there was a fixed number of twenty Moffs, who answered to the Imperial Ruling Council. That year, the senior rank of Grand Moff was created and awarded to Wilhuff Tarkin.

(Emphasis Mine)

Also, their article on the Imperial Army likewise doesn't list Moff as a rank.

Out of curiosity, what canon source was used?

You can check out the old Wookiepedia article on rank insignias for it. Additionally, most of those articles relate to the armed forces (or at least the Imperial Navy :) ) being under the command of Moffs. We've also got mention later on of Grand-Moffs being "governor-generals" in the article you link. Remember, Tarkin was an Admiral before being elevated to Grand Moff as well.

That's sounds like they have both a military rank (General/Admiral) and a civilian rank (Moff). At least to my understanding.

If you want to conceal your phone number, get a free Google Voice number (I think this is only for US?). There are other free options as well that cover your existing number.

And yea, if you have someones number, and you message them on a Messaging's going to see the number. Not sure what the issue is, here. The issue would be if other people could then see your number. Which they can't, as long as you simply set up your username. Just my .02.

Excuse my no doubt awful grasp of American politics, but my general perception of Moff was it being akin to a state governor, and Tarkin akin to Admiral Joe Bloggs getting appointed Governor of Texas, and that being the governmental office that gave a Moff authority in a civilian commander-in-chief sort of way (albeit I've no clue if state governors have that sort of role the way I gather the actual president does, but it's kinda how I generally pictured a Moff).

Admiral Tarkin is an interesting point though.. as I dunno what walks of life the other Moffs came from or if they were all from military backgrounds?

I do not believe Telegram supports google voice numbers, fwiw.

Terran: That is possible, but it is not explicitly clear from the articles whether it is a separate position structure or a merging of the two. What is clear is that moffs were in charge of military forces and many held ranks in the Imperial armed forces prior to being elevated to Moff. Because in the canon these ranks contain explicit command of groups of forces that is not the case in the DB, it isn't exactly a direct translation here. I also know that Grand General was something from Tarkin; perhaps Sarin when he returns can talk about that.

Marick: The point is if you message their Telegram Username, NOT their phone number, they will see your phone number, if you've previously been given theirs, but did not want to give them yours. That's the grey area that Sil was highlighting, as somebody may not have realised Telegram would reveal yours, because you initially assume you're just messaging the Username @Xanos, and may never have phoned me or texted me or done anything to make use of my actual phone number.

So potentially I can tell you all my phone number here, and you all might just write it down in case you wanted to prank call me in a few years, but the joke will then be on you because I'll now see your phone number in the DB chatroom :P

I find the inclusion of "Moff" (which is literally a planetary or system Governor, not a rank) to be extremely odd, and possibly worth revisiting, as it makes no real sense with military theme.

Agreed, that was a little odd. I wonder if instead of Moff, a mid-general rank would be slotted in (say Lieutenant-General or similar) below that of General.

I also think the whole mystical theme of the Gray ranks is opposed to how the majority of Gray Jedi have been depicted in canon, as well as how most of the Gray members in the club play their own characters (far less concerned with the vagaries of philosophy and the Force, and more pragmatic in their outlook - something Romanesque or similar to the old Obelisk ranks might have been more appropriate).

This is where I'm gonna have to do some soul-searching. I know rank is a fairly decorative item in our universe and frankly, beyond being a padawan, full Knight, and Master, there's not much in the way of "ranks" in the canon or Legends stuff - everything is more a title of respect or something to denote what you're skilled at.

While I've always played my character close to Gray's pragmatism (or even Light at times), I definitely don't see my character at all involved in the mysticism that the ranks seem to suggest. I identify my character's skills and behaviour more with the Jedi titles (Peacekeeper, Ranger, Vanguard, Warden) and Sith titles (Warrior, Battlemaster, Battlelord, Warlord) as they seem to imply some martial skill rather than bookishness. Once we get the DGM report out to explain things more fully I'm gonna have to figure out how my guy fits into it all so that I don't have to re-write my entire backstory.

I know it's late to the party on this and there's been a ton of work already, but I almost would like the idea of being able to choose from the three titles that a given tier have available so that you can choose to be called either Warrior, Peacekeeper, OR Mystic depending on what fits your character model best. As your character grows/doesn't grow, and you advance to earn the next title, you could choose to be a Battlemaster, Ranger, or Savant, again based on what your character excels at.

I just can't picture my guy, whose backstory is that of a someone with a tactical mind, is skilled at combat, and generally does the right thing but will not hesitate to use all tools available to get the job done, being referred to as "Savant Zoron". "Ranger Zoron" or "Battlemaster Zoron" suit his skills and trades much better.

I should add, though, that at the end of the day, I'm happy to see the expansion and re-jigging of these. I'm not trying to diminish or discount any of the work already put into these, I'm just playing at devil's advocate a little here.

Thanks for the hard work from everyone involved on this thus far!

I would point out (that I think others have already) that some of us can't sign up for telegram because we don't have phone numbers. So saying that Telegram is superior to mIRC is kind of a null point if some of us don't even have phones and therefore are barred from Telegram, not to mention IRC is pretty darn easy to connect to, and is easy on the bandwidth. I have been told way too many times to get Telegram because all the talk and comaradery is there, and frankly, I can't because of the phone issue.

Athrun, fair enough, though we also have others who cannot access IRC because of firewalls or issues like not having regular access to computers that they own. I don't think we're going to find any system that is 100% accessible or covers 100% of our needs/wants.

Zoron, the reality is that you will probably find that there is no single term for each rank that will encompass what every member's character archetype will be for a given Order. The goal here was to go with thematic ranks, but they aren't meant to imply anything about your character. Many members use pseudo-titles in Aspects to indicate how their character would typically be referred.

I think its bullocks you got ride of Krath... and even.. shivers Obelisk order. To me those were awesome fluff titles and made me relate more to my character. Oh yay i get to chose an "Adherent to Krath order" later on but still. Meh. Im kind of disappointed the direction this went, with the abolishment of those two order in favor of catering to the new influx of members we expect to get. Sounds like a Disney move.

Although im relatively new, i really find it sad to have to give that up as it was one of the main reasons i joined the DJB. Now im given titles that tell nothing about the nature of my char, im just another Sith. Nothing to see here. I feel im forced to pick grey now, cause i sure as heck dont see myself being a warrior when i hit EQ1, let alone see myself as a "Sith". Whilst i understand a lot of effort, time and energy where put into this, killing off the two other orders cause they aint canon (prays they become canon again) just feels wrong. The part where Kenath mentions you should be able to pick a title at your rank across all paths would give more flexibilty and ease the slight injustice of being forced into being a Sith.

Anyways, I appreciate the effort put into this. I just hope that there will be changes or modifactions in the future instead of forcing us down a single path with titles that wouldnt relate at all to our characters.

Hrm... personally I like all the ranks in the first column, lets just use those.

(Blank Order ftw)

If Disciplines were more promoted on the dossier....

Darkblade, Obelisk was created by a long-gone DB member ages ago for people that wanted to play JK.

Krath are based on a Sith cult.

Neither have the canon standing of Sith and Jedi. Dark Jedi certainly exist, hence they are an Order. You don't need to go Gray to be a Dark Jedi, though you certainly can if you want to. Gray Jedi is the Order name for Light and Gray Paths, while Dark Jedi is the name for the Dark Path. See my past reports, or upcoming report, for details :)

MAv, i understand they were made up, but still, they drew me into the club. It just feel unjust to get rid of them in favor of catering to the future members to feel more canon. Isnt the idea of a fantasy fan club to offer more then just the "normal" stuff everyone already knows. I do really totally love the addition of Gray/Loyalist/Merc though! It is a step forward in my eyes. The step back is just going "Oh hey, lets scrap these two Orders cause they aint canon. Also, lets not discuss this with our community members, but make the choice ourselves and piss on them."

If we were allowed input on whether to keep or scratch out these order then i must have missed that and im just going to quietly sit in a corner while i bash my head against the wall for my stupidity. :P I dunno, im just really really sad and agitated about the Krath being killed off in favour of keeping Sith around. I mean we are a Dark Jedi related site, but we allowed Light side and now Grey side. Why was the choice as big as this made and not discussed with us, the general community who actually make up the majority of this club, but instead just decided behind closed doors then shoved down our throats? ARGh xD

I eagerly await your reports and im sure the choices you all have made were discussed at length. Again, I love the additional paths/orders you created, it makes for a more diverse community and such and cant wait to see what that will eventually bring to the table. I just cant relate to them in any way atm unless i decide to rewrite my character.

I'm totally fine with the changes, I personally just wish a little bit of heads up was given for the Loyalist ranks being militarily based, as to give us time to change the system on the wiki for our Clan. Otherwise, I am happy with it. It's more accessible to members who would join and wish to be have a certain career or title in the DJB.

As for Telegram, if you can get it, then get it. If you want to go onto IRC, go onto IRC. There isn't a reason not to have both in existence. Even if one was the "official" place to go, then the other would still clearly exist. I enjoy Telegram because I have my phone with me all the time. It is easier to communicate directly anywhere about projects or happenings in the DB without having my computer. I went onto IRC the other day and had a small convo with a few people. Stayed on for quite a bit more and nothing was happening.

Mav, I just wanted to highlight something you said, in the hopes of possibly explaining why some of us are so recalcitrant about the new ranks:

Zoron, the reality is that you will probably find that there is no single term for each rank that will encompass what every member's character archetype will be for a given Order. The goal here was to go with thematic ranks, but they aren't meant to imply anything about your character. Many members use pseudo-titles in Aspects to indicate how their character would typically be referred.

Characters have themes as well. Having thematic titles that are very specific as to their inferences will inevitably imply things about your character. I understand that them doing so isn't your intention - but that doesn't mean they don't do so anyway. They do. It's just something worth considering (and why ranks based on Traditions, rather than Path, would make so much sense).

As for Aspects...we only have two personality aspects. If the goal is to give us the ability to create fully fleshed out characters, then telling people to dedicate half of the space they have to individualize their character's personality to simply tell someone what to call them is a bit counter productive.

The day the Krath as order was announced as being removed, I was like:

Alt text

I won't comment on what was finally decided as nothing will really change at this point, there have been a few announcements regarding the general direction that paths/orders were going in <- First large announcement, outlining the broadstrokes of everything, including path stuff. This was Apr. 6. After that there have been other reports talking about it

And I know it's been discussed in other reports...and it's been discussed with Clan leaders so they could have passed on the word as well. Basically, it shouldn't come as a "shock" :P Disagree on what's happening, but don't say people weren't given fair warning about it.

I just have to say this... Legend? Really? (Not a huge fan of the other merc elder names either really) :P

Terran, I 100% understand your character has a theme. But both of us are likely to end up the same Order, but with vastly different themes. The rank structures as they exist can't account for everyone's themes. That is just unrealistic, and it is something we considered deeply. But you should - and you do - define your character by more than your rank, more than your Path. Not everyone really refers to their character frequently by their rank anyway.

We will never allow Traditions to be anything more than flavor because their entire purpose is for flavor flexibility. We'll revisit ideas relating to greater "rank title" options in the future. But it won't be through Traditions. This violates the very intention of them.

I did not say you needed to dedicate "half of the space they have" to individualize your character. It is unfair to claim you have only 2 aspects you can use to flush out your character, but besides that, I said that some people have Aspects written in a way that allows them to reference some theme of their character. If you think this is unreasonable, I can't help you there, plenty of members do it and do it well.

The Merc ranks are fine right up until Elder, imo. Then they stray into comically bad. Which is a shame, cause those are basically the ranks that most people aspire to.

I mean, I might for a millisecond consider switching to merc just so I can force people into recognizing that I am a legend, but that would quickly (and has been) replaced with realizing just how dumb that rank name is :P

I always read in the Mercenary Elder 1 rank:


And not Eminent :D

Come on, Yacks.. you always wanted to impress the chicks by saying:

Hi,.. I am Legend... Legend Yacks. And not only my title is legendary. wink wink wink wink

Awesome report. IRC was awesome. I loved it when I was in the DB off and on from 2004-2007. Now I'm rarely at my computer and love telegram. I support it being used

Yacks was a Bollywood legend once...

tries to find where he put that video

Zoron, the reality is that you will probably find that there is no single term for each rank that will encompass what every member's character archetype will be for a given Order. The goal here was to go with thematic ranks, but they aren't meant to imply anything about your character. Many members use pseudo-titles in Aspects to indicate how their character would typically be referred.

I understand that, trust me, I do. My issue is simply the seeming disconnect between the way the Gray order is described on the chart you have linked on your report ("a follower of the Gray Path often approaches a situation more pragmatically") and the theme of the ranks above. The ranks above feel very "Krathy" in the idea of Gray Jedi being mystics. It just really seems at odds with being a pragmatic order. In my mind, pragmatism has a lot more to do with actually doing something rather than being academic about it.

I'm confused by your statement that not everyone refers to their characters by ranks, as well. I imagine that you read a lot more of the fiction than I do, so can you share some examples? Are people making up fictional titles for their characters ("The Butcher of Kessel" or similarly silly things like that)? Calling themselves by their positions ("Consul XYZ")? Nothing except their names?

To be fair, part of this might be in the way I view our "ranks" fictionally. I see ranks as something that have measurable requirements for advancement. As such, our "rank" system doesn't match that view. While we can say that we have those requirements, those are all OOC requirements. Fictionally, Yacks isn't going to look at me and go, "Oh, your midichlorians are over 1500, you're now an Equite." That's what I was trying to say above with the idea that our "ranks" are really "titles" that describe something you do well or something about your character (ie - "Battlemaster" for someone who has distinguished himself through combat for the clan/Brotherhood is obviously a different skill set than "Mystic", who has probably earned a name for themselves by studying the Force such that he's discovered something for the clan/Brotherhood and earned that "title" or nickname even.)

I'm a strong believer in not bitching for the sake of bitching. If I can't offer a solution, I'll generally keep my mouth shut unless it's a game-breaker that is important to acknowledge even if no solution is easily apparent. In this circumstance, I do want to be sure that I am offering a suggestion to help with this issue. Of course it's not going to be 100% perfect, but we can already see people being turned off the idea of going Gray for the simple reason that the names of each rank are strongly implying that your character is some sort of mystic. I suspect having the option to pick from Warrior, Mystic, or Peacekeeper would help ease that issue considerably. You could select from a drop-down list which of the 3 titles you're eligible for that make most sense fictionally. That's what I was trying to get at with the idea of using any of the titles along the tier for whenever you reach EQ1, EQ2, etc.

That is indeed the Legend himself in action, Mal, yes.

I ain't even mad bro.

Zoron, part of the solution you propose (choosing your rank title bit) is something that has been proposed but would require additional coding, so it may happen, but not for a long time as it would be in a long list. Some background may be useful on why it can't be implemented now. As coded, rank name/title is determined by your Order. Thus, we can't currently as coded give you an option between rank names from the same order. The work around would be making three coded Orders per "real" Order, each with a different rank tree; the problem here is this would prohibit us from using rank to sort in any meaningful way in the future and would give us tons and tons of Orders when we really don't want that :p

Also, keep in mind that while Gray is meant to be pragmatic, Gray Jedi are meant to be outsiders that don't ascribe to any particular Order (or at least neither Sith nor Jedi) and are thus a bit on the wilder side of Force usage, not beholden to codes and outside of existing structures, hence the "mysticism" angle.

People give themselves personal titles like Butcher of Kessel :p If you have an Aspect to support it, why not?

Finally, we have really moved away from ranks being in character measurable forms of advancement in many ways because there are many archetypes or actions people would take to be promoted that can't be well reflected in rank names. All that being said, I do appreciate the concerns you and Vic have articulated and perhaps in the future some sort of solution can be found that wouldn't bloat our list of Orders immensely :)

@Mav not everyone has given out or received other's phone numbers in djb.

I don't have anyone's number and I've been here 8 years. LoL

And why is anyone complaining about ranks and titles? People clammoring for changes and I am happy to see more choices available.

Though, I refuse to change my email signature

I am proud of my Sith Battlemaster rank :p

I didn't even notice the rank change... wonder if my dossier is broken. </humblebrag>

Couldn't we have like a small small addition to our Dossier?


Prophet Keirdagh Taldrya Cantor; Juggernaut of the Sith.


Juggernaut Keirdagh Taldrya Cantor; Prophet of the Sith.

(I mean to the first page showing up on the dossier)

Xia, are you suggesting we incorporate Disciplines on other areas of the Dossier? I don't mind this. We can poke James to see what he says.

Disciplines seem to be quite a part of definition of what a character is. A seeker, a Juggernaut.. more the sorcery type. It seems (at least to me) a quite adequate "replacement" of the Orders.

It's not a 100% replacement, but at least the Disciplines are quite strong in characterising your character. Juggernaut, Sorcerer, Seeker, ... tells you quickly what type of person you face.

@ Mav: yeah. On the Summary or Header of a dossier. Somewhere seen when loading a dossier. It should be also "above the fold" (aka seen without scrolling).

Discipline on the main dossier page? That sounds cool, as I love the way your name and titles, etc, are presented atop the CS page.

Actually, yeah, that does sound amazing. I'd love to see that.

I was thinking about something similar to Xia's thinking, but instead thought we could slimply add the House name with the rank. So instead of just appearing as Knight Calindra Hejaran, it could say Imperium Knight Calindra Hejaran, or Knight of House Imperium Calindra Hejaran when we post, it coud read better as well from our dossier. Mine currently says:

Calindra Hejaran, #14234 Knight, Imperium, Scholae Palatinae Dark Path, Order of the Sith

But it could just as well say:

Calindra Hejaran, #14234 Knight Imperium, Scholae Palatinae | Knight of House Imperium | Imperium Knight Dark Path, Order of the Sith

Sorry, format didn't give WYSIWYG..!

Meh, I'm less jazzed about the discipline on the dossier front page thing. My discipline isn't who my character is, especially given that I'm not a "Seeker" and not an Inquisitor. I also am a bit Sorcey, so yeah. Adding those to the dossier page along with the ranks just gives something else that doesn't fit everyone a prominent position on the dossier. I don't see why the Traditions that we can chose don't cover this problem as they stand. I don't feel any less of a Krath today than I did yesterday. Traditions, unlike the choices offered by the old Orders and the current selection of disciplines, would seem to offer far more possible personalization once they're implemented. It won't be the old three orders, nor will it be the current eight disciplines which were reworked to be more path neutral. Instead, it'll be some uncounted number of unique choices? How is that not an improvement?

Also, with a possible addition of disciplines, the front page of my dossier is going to list me as Battlelord Selika Roh di Plagia, Seeker of the Dark Side, Krath Adherent? Can I just be Super Kami Guru instead?

I support being Super Kami Guru.

Battlemaster Brimstone aka Seabr'imsto'nedansr, Plagueis Sith, Master of the Cellphone, Cheerleader of the House of Karness Muur, Grand Master's Favorite Smurf


Thanks for the quick response Mav, that makes sense now on that aspect.

One thing that is bugging me about the Loyalist list - the jump from Enlisted to Officer doesn't line up with all the other natural breaks in the ranks that the other orders have. For example, JM8 is the jump from "trainee" Jedi to full-fledged Knight, something that is a big deal across all the orders. However, you jump from Sgt to Lt at JM7 in Loyalist. That's just like nails on a chalkboard for me now that I see it. It would make sense to have the JM8 in Loyalist be the jump from Enlisted cannon fodder to being officer material.

Again, in the interest of proposing a solution instead of just throwing criticisms, why not remove Moff (since that one is kinda a weird and debatable one from the discussions above) and slot in Corporal before Sergeant, so Sergeant is now JM7, Lt is now JM8. Make it so that the plateau that we mark as being important in all the other Orders matches with Loyalists too.

Zoron makes a good point about the loyalist ranks, didn't really notice it at first but now that he mentioned it, it sorta sticks out as being weird compared to the other orders.

Hadn't really looked at it before, but I agree with Zoron and Mal.

DJK has always been the Journeymen rank that people are initially driven toward by Prometheus and all the other promotion structures, so even though the name is different, JM8 is still the milestone of your achievement as a Journeymen, before you entire the Equites, so it'd make logical sense to do like Zoron said and make that the transitional milestone between Enlisted and Officer, akin to the transition from student to Knight.

I don't have any preference there Zoron, but I have no connection to military ranks at all. Better to bring that one up to Sarin when he gets back. However, Colonel isn't really a good Elder rank, so I'd be strongly opposed to just removing Moff and bumping stuff up one. We could remove some other EQ rank instead.

Well, the military term for Moff in SW was always Surface Marshal, or High Admiral, they were considered to be interchangeable, since Moffs were always the ultimate commander of a Sector army. Of course if we needed another flag rank (because yeah, now they're flag ranks, not elders for Loyalist) we could add in the High General rank below Surface Marshal. Basically that would make the elder ranks look like...

  • ELD1: High General
  • ELD2: Surface Marshal
  • ELD3: Grand General

Of course, since Surface Marshal sorta sticks out there, you could just go General, High General, Grand General and still maintain a perfectly acceptable chain of command, ignoring the politically appointed rank of Moff and keep it within the Army only ranks. Even assuming we took Zoron's reasonable notion in regards to rank that would leave us looking like...

  • JM1-8: INI, APP, Cadet, Trooper, Private, Corporal, Sergeant, Lieutenant
  • EQ1-4: Captain, Major, Commander/Lieutenant Colonel, Colonel
  • EL1-3: General, High General, Grand General

You'll note I left a variable in regards to Commander/Lt Col, because Commander is an odd one as it's normally a naval rank, and I can't find any reference to it being in Imperial Army ranks, but I haven't looked through any source books.

PS: Just wait until we have an Eminently Masterful Legend of Mercenary Fame!

May I make a suggestion as a lowly Peacekeeper? I see a mix between Empire and Rebel ranks...with no consistency (Commander = Lieutenant-Colonel). May I suggest adding Sergeant-Major in between Sergeant and Lieutenant as JM7 so therefore promotion to an officer is equal to full Jedi/Dark Jedi, drop the Commander rank (navy rank in army ranks) and with the addition of the Sergeant-Major rank Major would now be EQ2, then ELD1 would be Brigadier, ELD2 would be General, ELD3 would be Grand General, then Grand Master; to me it makes a nicer progression.

Obviously, this is just a suggestion :)

Am I the only person having a hard time with "Army" ranks when we're constantlytalkking about the Iron Fleet and Clan Fleets ( in the DJB? I'll live if we keep them, but I just wanted to raise that point... I'm also liking Keirdagh and Lucian's suggestions for ranks in general; I'd just favor something that's more in line with what we've got...

in that case.... JM1-8: INI, APP, Cadet, Trooper, Seaman, Petty Officer, Chief Petty Officer, Lieutenant EQ1-4: Lieutenant Commander, Commander, Captain, Commodore EL1-3: Admiral, Fleet Admiral, Grand Admiral

I'd just change Seaman to Crewman. :)

Don't look at the Canadian Navy ranks then lol, Ordinary Seaman, Able Seaman, Leading Seaman, Master Seaman :)

I like Yacks' proposed solution best - it lines up the Enlisted to Officer break properly and resolves the head scratching about where Moff properly suits it. It also removes Commander as one of the Eq ranks, so we don't have to bump Colonel up into the Elder ranks. Best of all, it shouldn't require any major changes beyond changing a few names (I assume).

Ew I'm a dirty Sith now. :/ A dead dirty Sith, but still a dirty Sith.

Yay, Taraaaax <3

I don't know how Yacks is so smart, but I want some of that.

@Yacks: I know that the Powers That Be were going for specifically canon ranks (which High General no longer is). Brigadier General is, though, having been mentioned in two episodes of The Clone Wars. So if it were decided to drop Moff it would probably be best to put ELD1 at Brigadier and then bump full General to ELD2.

I like Yacks' idea, and regarding keeping it canon, why bother? none of the other orders have canon rank names, seems a bit weird to force those restrictions on only one out of five orders.

Thank you to the team for all of the hard work behind these changes. On a related note, I too aspire to be a Legend.

@Malik: My best guess would be that there isn't a detailed chain of command among either Jedi or Sith in canon with there just being key stages, in the movies it's Sith Apprentice or Sith Master. Jedi have younglings, Padawans Knights, Masters and Grand Master which are obviously nowhere near the amount of ranks needed so non-canon names are used for ranks.

Also thanks to all the people who helped make this happen! I know it can't have been easy with all the planning and discussion before getting to this stage. I also think that while there were differences in the Obelisk and Sith rank titles looking at the new Sith ranks they do fit people who were Obelisks to an extent. Obviously it's impossible to please everyone and people have and will have differing opinions but I think a good job has been done and the future is bright. Oh umm Gray or whatever path you're on.

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated.

Simplify things. Do not make them more complicated.

-Flow with what is.

“Do not try and bend the spoon—that’s impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth.”

“What truth?”

“There is no spoon.”

I'd just like to point out that the closest we have to canon Dark Jedi ranks would be in the Star Wars app (it's Disney Offical). In the Force Trainer game it has ranks (lowest to highest) of "Dark Side Adept 1-4, Sith Acolyte 1-5, Sith Apprentice 1-5 and Sith Master 1-10" Admittedly I only play as a Dark Sider, so I don't know what the Light or Droid ranks are.

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