I understand the position on the meme competitions, it definitely gave quite a few of us a boost. I'd propose some review in terms of the level of effort put into the meme competition as I had a few where I was doing some collage work pulling screen-prints directly from videos, editing out backgrounds/resizing, and adding layers to overlay existing meme templates with other custom graphics.

While definitely not the same caliber of custom graphics, even custom stick-figure graphics, perhaps something to consider a single Cluster of Graphite if sponsored by the Herald office.

One question in the interim, will the existing meme comps still in flight issue Clusters of Graphite and then any new competitions will be under the new format or is this change effective immeidately?

I understand your point of view here but the majority of the meme comps make use of pre-made graphics where you only need to add a caption and then submit it. We will continue to review the matter and eventually adapt to future changes.

We also decided against changing past competitions, in other words, all currently approved Meme comps will not be affected by this change.

Thank you, Rian. I appreciate the openness to continually review based upon the specific criteria and requirements set forth in future competitions and the grandfathering of existing, approved competitions.

This is a good policy and consistent with the objectives of the Shroud Syndicate to encourage artistic skills and growth.

This change was much needed and very appropriate, to avoid cluster farming for competitions that clearly required very little effort. I myself maybe put in 5 minutes time on each set of these competitions, and netting over 20 clusters for 5 minutes work clearly required balancing. Thanks Rian!

An understandable re-balance. A solid report, and I hope that things continue forward swimmingly for you now that you have your computer back to work.

This is a good change. I understand some require more work than others but in the long run, they just require much work. Also, ver nice work by the Herald staff on members GfX

I don't like the meme competition change at all. They were my first real chance to earn Clusters of Graphite and engage with the Shroud Syndicate. Now that this change has been announced, I'll go back to half-assing graphics submissions for vendettas only. I am positive I won't be the only one who will now disengage from the system as a result.

Instead of enjoying the greater numbers of submissions meme competitions generated, which I see as akin to expanding access to Crescents for more than 10 participants, you're simply telling everyone with no artistic talent to bugger off and leave the graphics work to the real artists. Until recently, I'd rarely bothered with graphics competitions because what's the point? I possess no artistic skill so why spend a ton of time creating something really bad that stands no chance of placing instead of writing, gaming or literally anything else where I do have a chance?

The DJB should be expanding access to societies, not restricting them. What is the point of going to all the effort of creating and maintaining a Society if you heavily restrict access and advancement in it? According to the DJB site, there are 578 GMRG members, 1054 SA members, 605 Inquisitorius members, but only 221 Shroud Syndicate members. This to me is a problem that should be addressed.

I think this could have been fixed by using other methods like allocating clusters based on the difficulty of the competition as defined and approved by the Herald's office. Or if it was a problem with Shroud Syndicate progression, then rejig the numbers to slow it up. This feels like a cop out and the fastest way to end a perceived problem, rather than working to find a solution that works for everyone. Most recent DC decisions have been to expand systems access and reward participation. This decision does the exact opposite. Big thumbs down from me.

As a former Herald, I fully stand behind this as a great decision. Good work, Rian and Co.

As to the feedback in the negative, I have a few thoughts. First, the Cluster of Graphite was created to reward graphics/art. Just like the Earth/Fire were created for gaming and Ice was created for writing. It's going to be a niche activity somewhat due to the nature of the beast. However, calling a meme competition art isn't the answer to that issue. Nor does the idea that Crescents are only for 10 people when it comes to graphics competitions hold any water, either. There are plenty of "low skill ceiling" graphics competitions that have been and are held (I always made sure that every round of every Vendetta when I was Herald had one of those competitions running, and many other folks do similar things). The fact that there aren't enough of them being offered isn't a reason to expand to using an meme generator entries as cluster awarding graphics events. Sure, there are edge cases where somebody does some work beyond grabbing an image and using a website to make the meme for them, but those are edge cases. We don't treat that as the norm, nor should we. Meme competitions can still be run, mind you, and people can still get crescents for winning them. So the idea that somehow this cuts out an avenue of crescent winning doesn't hold any water, either.

This also isn't "restricting" access to a society any more than not supporting single player gaming is restricting access to the GMRG. The GMRG is a multiplayer gaming organization. The Shourd Syndicate is one for art. Awarding clusters for a zillion meme comps is an exploit in the system. Sure, it drives engagement and expands access, but I've seen gaming exploits get discovered and do the same thing. "People do this activity more" isn't a reason to redefine what another activity is. The idea that there need to be more competitions with, for lack of a better term, less "art snobbery" in them is another one all together (which I don't totally agree with, as there are plenty of those low skill ceiling competitions by volume when it comes to graphics comps). The argument here is whether or not finding a picture and using Imgflip.com to add text to it qualifies as what the Cluster was designed to do. I think the answer to that question is no. If I can make memes on the fly during remote meetings at work to throw into the chat window? And again, yes there are edge cases. But they aren't most cases.

And, finally, the other methods to fix this? We already have a difficulty modifier for competitions. This isn't a difficulty issue, it's an "Is the entry for this competition the type of artwork the Shroud Syndicate was designed to reward and encourage?" issue. It isn't. When there's an issue with an exploit in the system, one doesn't revamp the entire system to accommodate the exploit, you fix the exploit. It isn't a "perceived problem", it's an actual problem. The recent DC decisions to expand systems access have been about addressing shortcomings that also restrict accessibility. The shortcoming is the thing being fixed, the result of the fix is expanding access. What's being argued for here is that people are accessing the system this way, so that must be good, and that restricting that access is in and of itself inherently bad. A lot more people could access the GMRG if we didn't ban single player gaming. A lot more people could access the Inquisitorius if it didn't require writing. "A lot of people are doing this and it is therefore good" is not a good argument.

this change made cause little is done to actual artistry is the only reason no more graphites? yet stick figures, which are even simpler than the memes still get graphites?? that doesn't seem fair at all. I agree with the other poster of perhaps limiting it to one graphite perhaps. but to completely remove it, makes doing any more meme comps as useless and moot now.

Only if you're so ill-minded and closed off as to think getting crescents (which count towards promotion progression, which many members benefit from) and the easy credits from them (as well as the meme comps) are moot.

If 10+ meme comps are run per month as has been the norm the last couple of months, that's over 2000 credits added to your account for 5 minutes worth of work. If you place in some of them? Even more.

5-10 minutes to earn 30 clusters of graphite is an exploit. 30 society points to grade a meme competition (which I can only assume is why the member ran 10+ a month) is an exploit.

Fixing exploits and system gaming (which this clearly is) has always been the way we do things and will continue to do things. Exploits (whether they be fiction, possessions, gaming, or art) have always been addressed. People who get their panties in a bunch over not being able to do so by adding some text to pictures need to re-evaluate themselves. There are plenty of low effort art comps that can be run and participated in to gain society points that are actual art.

Great work Rian, keep it up.

If this is an exploit, there are ways to address it without taking the path of least resistance and 'banning' them. And, might I add, the Herald staff were the ones to approve all these competitions in the first place. It took three months to identify this as an exploit?

That isn’t abnormal. I’ve been dealing with cluster exploits for years. You identify them, put the best fix in place to ensure the system is working the way it is supposed to, and then assess.

It took me a WHILE (read: a year) to figure out that participation incentive CEs/CFs for flash/mobile and individual achievement gaming competitions basically equaled single player clusters. Because those shouldn’t really be a thing, I put in a policy that stopped allowing incentive clusters. But over that year, I approved competitions that offered them.

This is a good change. Identified an exploit and fixed it.

Well done, Rian.

It was strange to me that these comps awarded CGs in the first place, as template-based meme comps have been around for a while and were generally not treated as graphic competitions. It's also weird that they used the HRLD rubric when 65% of the scoring isn't really applicable to the format.

Just to point out, the approval of the comps initially was based on there only being a handful of them and being at beginning level ranking, that would seemingly fine as long as there was only a few. There are quite a few comps that have been allowed before these recent comps with clusters and were similar to these here, here, here, here. There have also been comps that were similar and did not allow them so it was not a consistently applied rule almost at any time. Once it became exploited (20+ comps in a month and then ranking up several times within the same time), that's when it became more of an issue, because just as Anubis said, it takes 5 minutes (not even 5 minutes) to place text on an already created image. Some resizing and movement of additional images depending on what the meme is may seem like it is a lot of work and takes up that 5 minutes, but compared to other competitions where it was meme based and someone had to actually draw the meme out? It's not comparable. There definitely needs to be additional look into what can be given as wiggle room to change maybe how many clusters are awarded if something like this, but for now, this is the best course until those additional plans are placed.

To my fellow members of the Brotherhood,

This decision was in reaction to the idea that memes are considered works of art (beginner level). There's more to making a meme than just adding a captions to an image. It can include a collage of images to form into a unique one of its own. There are gifs with inserted images and captions in specific parts of the individual frames that paved the way to video editing. This has also escalated to the more advanced video with sound effects, music, caption, and altered frames with images. Do realize that memes have grown over the past decade in internet culture (that's also us) and have become its own way of communicating humor, hype, and propaganda. They went from the simple drawn troll face to outright projects that take a great deal of time and effort. I saw this as a method of advertising for the club, as potentially it could create a following for new membership. I felt this was morally (a Jedi mind you) okay because it encouraged art making one step beyond stick figures and made earning Clusters of Graphite as active as earning Clusters of Earth.

This wasn't done because meme's aren't seen as art however. This was done because I want from Rook to Boss in three months. I spammed more meme comps to put money in people's pockets (and my own) at a rate this credit/possessions system doesn't offer. Clusters of Graphites earn 3 credits, which is cheap and worth a meme. Those who won did so because of their humor, to which I know required a degree of critical thought. So I denounce the Dark Council for its decision and keep the view that memes are considered art and are worthy of Clusters of Graphite. If you were worried about the acceleration of my ranking system to the societies, perhaps it would be more appropriate to address that system as the bonus credits and item awards are incentive for competitive effort. I petition the council to be reactive to its members instead of restrictive.

Finally, I will continue to provide Make A Meme comps in May should the council decide to be stalwart in their decision. Instead of being as long as a week, they'll be as short as the MAA will allow. That fast turnover rate can still allow a decent income, but it will require more of making a meme once a day instead of ten all at once throughout the span of a week.

Thank you for your words of encouragement, your great jokes, and shared conversations. It has been impactful for me.

If this is an exploit, there are ways to address it without taking the path of least resistance and 'banning' them.

Nothing has been banned, they just don't award Clusters of Graphite anymore. Like a whole slew of other competitions. A good example is Battleplans, in which entries often include a crap ton of graphical artwork and don't award clusters because they aren't art events.

This wasn't done because meme's aren't seen as art however. This was done because I want from Rook to Boss in three months.

Uh, yes? You're acting like this is some sort of revelation when it's obviously an issue being addressed because it was being exploited. A member of the Herald staff said exactly that earlier in this comment thread. You're not being repressed, this isn't some conspiracy. Hell, if anything, your comps ruined meme comps for clusters by taking things up to 11 and exploiting the system. Meme comps awarding Clusters probably wasn't on anyone's radar as needing to be addressed prior to this, and if they were it was likely a scenario where it was basically tolerated since the solution was outsized compared to the problem. Then somebody made it a big problem which then required a fix. :P

These were actual submissions from earlier competitions. They speak for themselves.

It's laughable that you think getting 100k+ credits this way as fast as you did is how the system should work.

Credit rewards are balanced explicitly to the amount of effort required to attain X reward, whether it's a DC, AK, or a Crescent. They will not be adjusted (and discussion has already taken place on that topic, in which case adjustment was turned down).

You were clearly exploiting the system because you don't like the fact you actually have to grind, which is what our possessions system is all about. It's meant to be a grind no matter who you are. You flat out admit to gaming the system and go on to say you'll continue to do so however you can. That only reinforces that this was the appropriate decision by the Herald staff, not the wrong one.

It was the exploitation of these meme comps that put them on the radar, and as P:HRLD Kris said, if it was just a few here and there this change probably wouldn't of happened.

ALSO, zero point in that last comment.. nothing stops anyone from running these meme competitions. You still get rewards for them just like a regular competition.

The issue isn't whether or not some entries are artistic or not (though I can't see what they are now, since the images are broken). There are plenty of entries that include graphical content that don't award clusters. I mean, this battleplan entry is graphical out the wazoo, but battleplan events don't award Clusters of Graphite. I've put cover images on my fiction entries in the past that blow away the amount of artistic work done for any meme competition, but that wouldn't earn me a Cluster of Graphite either. The fact that some entries in a whole host of competition types can involve creating artwork does not make them graphics competitions because the competition doesn't require artistic work. A meme competition does not require artistic work. An entrant can go out and find an image they did not create, use a website that handles the design and composition aspects for them, and type out their meme text and they're done. That is what is required for the competition type. It isn't a graphics competition.

Beyond that, the biggest issue is that the Shroud Society was created to increase interest and engagement in artwork in the Brotherhood. That's why systems like that exists. The SA society drives people to consume SA content, the GMRG drives multiplayer gaming, the Inquisitorius drives writing. Snowing under the competition lists with a bunch of activities that aren't focused on generating artwork will, if anything, decrease interest and engagement in artwork in the Brotherhood. It will make it harder for people to find other competitions focusing on the activity, and it will disincentivize them to participate if they do. Why enter a graphics event when you can get almost the same return on a meme competition and can enter 5 in the same time? It becomes a race to the bottom. The society exists to try to drive that specific activity, it doesn't exist to serve itself. If people aren't engaging enough with artwork activities in the Brotherhood, the answer is not to redefine the data included in "artwork activity" to make the stats look bigger. If anything, that will make the route problem actually worse.

It was an exploit. Period. But, worse than that, it was something that was going to just further entrench any ivory tower issues that exist within the DB art community. Why grow as an artist and engage with the art community more when one can simply min/max their way to the highest Society rank and earn a pile of Clusters along the way? It would fundamentally pivot the Shroud Society from something that incentivizes the growth of art to something that incentivizes the exact opposite. In essence, we would all be yelling this at the Shroud:

Could I ask for a clarification?

Creon's first post argues 4 somewhat different points it seems:

1) "I saw this as a method of advertising for the club, as potentially it could create a following for new membership."
So it's a way to engage new members?

2) "I felt this was morally (a Jedi mind you) okay because it encouraged art making"
But wasn't it a way to engage new members? Now it's about it being an artform despite the HRLD's opinion?

3) "I spammed more meme comps to put money in people's pockets (and my own) at a rate this credit/possessions system doesn't offer."
So it's not about engaging new members, nor is it about it being an artform. It's not even really about the CGs and the Shroud Syndicate? It's an exploit to the credit/possessions system since you get paid for hosting them too?

4) "I will continue to provide Make A Meme comps in May should the council decide to be stalwart in their decision. Instead of being as long as a week, they'll be as short as the MAA will allow. That fast turnover rate can still allow a decent income, but it will require more of making a meme once a day instead of ten all at once throughout the span of a week."
So it's not about engaging new members, nor is it about it being an artform, nor is it really about exploiting the credit/possessions system. But it's about somehow invalidating parts of the credit/possessions system in some way that seems to elude me?

So my request for clarification: What? I don't understand what he's trying to accomplish with this comment.

To me this would fall more under the heading of a fiction type competition rather than a graphics based comp. Like was mentioned before, the battleplans we do during the bigger events equates more to this to me as it usually follows the same patterns... sort of.

Imagine doing the meme and you use a picture to make the meme and the only part you actually create is the text you added. I feel that it would qualify for fiction participation rather than a gfx entry. Maybe I'm not right but thats what it seems like to me.

Just because a competition involves using written words does not make it a fiction. Fictions are specifically about telling a narrative story, either by yourself or with others (co-op, run-ons, ACC).

That's why we have the other category.

There is a specific type under regular that is graphic/multimedia that does not give any clusters. It covers multiple medias but nothing about making a meme is warranted enough to say it was a fair use transformative piece of artwork worthy of clusters of graphite. Majority if not all memes made have already pre-generated images or images that are then complied together. I think there was some big meme issue about copyright and what not recently as it was ruled for most memes being non-transformative enough for someone to merely just take the image and place text or just save it then add "wow that's funny" voice over in a 'review'. This dealt more with real world sources of income but is partially impactful here is doing these meme comps with clusters of graphite/society points clearly gave more payment for the minor effort. Nothing stops having meme competitions in general. They just can't be under the traditional graphic competition category.